AHC and WI: No Bolshevik Russia

With no PoDs prior to March 1917, how can the Socialist Revolutionary Party, the Mensheviks, some other (leftish) socialist party, or some combination thereof, be the ones to govern (or "govern") Russia in the years following the Revolution, instead of the Bolsheviks? At first glance, this should be doable -- FWIG the SRs held majorities in the Soviets, and won the parliamentary elections in November 1917, the Mensheviks were more influential than the Bolsheviks, and even Kerensky was a Trudovik (a breakaway party from the SR).

So, maybe Lenin is killed at Finland Station or isn't transported east? Or something else? However his faction's takeover is prevented, how does this alternate Russian Revolution run its course? How is the Russian war effort affected (or is that one of the conditions for stopping Lenin's Bolshevik faction)? Is it possible for the Revolution's leaders to at reject -- at least at first and in theory -- the "vanguardism" and/or "democratic centralism" of Leninism? Or can that only guarantee the failure of the Revolution (falling to right wing militarists, etc)? (I'm also somewhat drawn to the ideas of Nardonik remaining influential longer.)

(Note: I ask this as someone less than perfectly versed in leftist ideology and Russian political history; so, from those who are, forgiveness if I make mistakes here or struggle with some concepts.)
 
The question then becomes will the SR screw things up.

That's the big question for this thread, I think. Looking at some old threads, I found some excellent long comments on a similar question:
I don't think anyone here has yet picked up on the fact that the regime in Petrograd in 1917 was not simply "the Provisional Government," so-called. There was a state of "dual power" between the PG, which really had neither a legal nor a broad popular basis, and the Soviets (I hope everyone here knows what a "soviet" was, distinct from the Bolsheviks later appropriating the term for bodies they controlled utterly), mainly the Petrograd Soviet. "Soviet" is the Russian word for "councils." They first formed in the 1905 Revolution. They were committees formed directly by workers in factories and other workplaces, federated into regional bodies. It was the soviets that held real power in the sense that the troops obeyed them--they would only follow an order issued by the PG if the Soviet countersigned it. The soviets were also by far the most democratic and legitimate (if we consider legitimacy to be a function of popular opinion as opposed to elite "people who matter") form of government the Russians had ever known.

The PG's "base," as much as it had one other than sheer pretension, was that the elites, who had lost control of Russia (at any rate key parts of it such as the big cities and huge swathes of the countryside, not to mention the Army itself) clung to it desperately seeking a new way to come out on top again. And foreign regimes--specifically the Entente--much preferred to believe the PG was Russia's real government to facing the reality on the ground, which was that the PG was really little more than a bunch of wannabees trying to pretend they ran things.

Their other advantage was that the Soviets were unsure they could really be the government, full stop. Ordinary Russians were not used to running things on their own.

This was dual power. In the views of people like Trotsky it was doomed to collapse into one resolution or other--either the old elites would regain dominance and ban the soviets as they had gradually done after 1905, then the Provisional Government would stop being "provisional." Or the Soviets would at some point shut down the PG and step forward as the sole governing system. As a Marxist, formerly Menshevik and now coming over to Lenin's side, Trotsky believed the latter could only happen under Bolshevik guidance and would be tantamount to Bolshevik rule.

LordInsane has been posting "A Central East" over a period of years now and hasn't yet fleshed out in detail whether what happens in his version of Red Russia is more one of these or the other--well he has ruled out a Leninist takeover though Lenin does emerge as the most respected single leader, but the Bolsheviks definitely haven't taken over as they did in "October" (actually November by the Gregorian and the slightly different Bolshevik-adopted calendar) OTL, and by "now" in his timeline (sometime in the 1920s) probably the situation has evolved to a state where they can't, in the unilateral fashion of OTL. (Lenin and Trotsky are both dead last time we looked, and Stalin, who is blamed rightly or wrongly for Trotsky's assassination, is in exile and appears to be irrelevant). I think that at this mid-1920s point we have something more like prolonged and perhaps even stabilized Dual Power, though LI does indicate that the Soviets were always at least somewhat diminished relative to OTL and that the Bolsheviks participated in a Provisional Government that was always more widely legitimate than OTL. He has been rather positive toward my suggestions that the Soviets are becoming embedded in a working (if largely unwritten) customary constitution of the Red state, but he is also noncommittal. It's his timeline and I look forward to whatever direction he takes it in, but I'd be excited if the Soviets remain and hold real power.

Again, I want to stress--"Soviet" does not equal "Bolshevik," though Lenin and his followers believed and hoped and tried to make sure it did. A situation where Soviets included diverse factions that held power in shifting balances and had to learn some rough respect for the rights of more or less loyal opposition might include Bolsheviks, but would not be merely their rule...

The only way to "take out the war" was to essentially surrender to the Germans, which is exactly what the Bolsheviks did at Brest-Litovsk. Huge chunks of Russian territory were ceded to the Germans outright. It was a brutally harsh peace, and the only reason any Russians considered the Bolsheviks legitimate after that was that they really were so tired of that war they accepted that peace came at a terrible price. The subsequent collapse of the German Empire mooted the treaty to be sure, but meanwhile the Germans had fostered a great many Whites against the Reds. I believe that was a clear violation of agreements they'd made in the treaty, but it was a victor's peace after all and no government outside Russia regarded the Bolsheviks as legitimate, so no one but the Reds cared about this betrayal. The Entente powers of course stepped right in to support these same former agents of Germany as their clients to supplant the Bolsheviks. Eventually the Bolsheviks won back most of what they'd traded away at B-L.

But the relevant thing here is, how could a PG, even a broader one more committed to at least a pretense of democracy and the popular interest, possibly do as the Bolsheviks did and still be accepted by the Entente powers as a legitimate Russian government? One reason the Bolsheviks got away with it was that their conception of their destiny, as the revolutionary vanguard of the entire world's working classes, was not tied up to Russian nationalism as such. They could see abandonment of huge and crucial regions of the former Tsarist empire as temporary setbacks, to be recovered with interest as the world revolution got underway in war-torn Europe. In a sort of sense, this is exactly what did happen. But without that messianic revolutionism, how could a moderate PG that looked halfway respectable to Western powers behave like that and survive?

Even if the PG could buy peace with Germany at a price not higher than even OTL Brest-Litovsk, and somehow stay in power in the diminished Russia, it is not clear how stable it could be. And I doubt such a regime would be able to recover more than a fraction of what the Bolsheviks eventually did win back.

Of course OTL the price of "winning" back Russia from the Whites was terribly high, both in terms of immediate bloodshed and devastation and in terms of setting the Bolsheviks firmly on the path of totalitarian dictatorship. In "A Central East" the Reds have in fact not yet won back most of their losses, which took the form both of initial annexations by the Central Powers and subsequent White regimes calved off of that remnant. As of the mid-20s LI's Red Russia is severely truncated in territorial terms. (There are signs that they might be on the point of taking in some of their rivals soon). But OTOH, it seems that the Civil War (like ITTL Great War itself) was shortened and involved a lot less devastation, so the Reds have a lot of people who OTL were killed, as well as a much higher industrial base to rebuild from--I suspect this, as much as the different political evolution that preserves the Bolshevik's rivals along with themselves, is why this Russia is more civil and also successful in economic terms.

If we imagine that instead of patronizing Lenin, the Germans had in a moment of foreboding killed him instead, and that in general the Bolsheviks were so disrupted they never were in a position to pull something like OTL October, I foresee Russia falling into a mess--warlords, rival pretenders to the Tsardom, neighboring regimes from Romania to Japan scheming to carve off territories here and there, puppet governments, and eventually a recovering Germany plotting to invade and take control of the heartland, especially the resource-rich south, by proxy or direct rule. Perhaps out of this chaos some non-Leninist faction would emerge, take charge, and repel many of these threats, but if they can it will certainly not be by means more gentle or less infamous than those the Bolsheviks, culminating in Stalinism, used OTL. I admit they could hardly be less humane (though in my opinion Nazism, for instance, is definitely worse than even Stalinism, for example because it sets up racism as a normative value) but they probably could not not be more effective, and any less effective than the Stalinist accomplishments and Russia winds up being conquered or partitioned (ie, conquered by a diverse collective).

When I want a good Russia wank, I prefer to imagine more effective and more humane Russian Marxists, myself. And I doubt they could have a lot less blood on their hands than Stalin did accumulate OTL.

Another reason I like Central East so much is that I see that possibility being held out there, maybe. (I also like it for reasons that are unrelated to Russia, such as the possibilities it holds out for very reasonable airship wank...;))
No. I think an SRS regime might be nice, but unfortunately they'd have no basis for building up Russian strength to a point where they could defend themselves from various predatory powers that were circling like vultures. And this weakness would be reflected in the refusal of other factions to accept the SRSs as legitimate just because they got more votes. Unfortunately Russia was not a democratic society (except in the sense that the new Soviets, which y'all are completely ignoring as though they didn't exist and so presumably don't in your timelines, were a potential basis for that) and while the majority of the population and various factions of intelligentsia might like the idea of majority rule, what non-radical civil society did exist was committed to authoritarian rule of the elite classes. They'd say to hell with the pretensions of a peasant rabble, and plot to install their own various versions of a properly ordered society. This both reflects and enables the designs of the various foreign threats. For the SRS to be able to hold its own against these kinds of enemies they'd need to evolve in a direction that would make them tantamount to the Bolsheviks--ruthless suppression of class enemies, cultivation of greater industrial power sacrificing the immediate interests of the people in whose name they rule.

Again, I like LordInsane's Central East timeline because rather than eliminating factions or just wishing them away, he envisions an uneasy but viable balance of power between them all. If we think that's unrealistic then we are reduced to picking one faction, and that faction had better be ruthless enough to survive all the challenges. I like it the other way more.

I'd have gotten there via "all power to the Soviets" and make the forum of the various factions fighting it out politically rather than with bullets the Soviets, to hell with the PG. That's not the way LI went with it, so you all should like that better than what I might have come up with, but to my mind all these speculations that ignore the existence of the Soviets completely are truly ASB. The workers of Russia formed actual committees that spoke for them, that was the February Revolution, not Kerensky, please deal with it somehow, even if only by having them all shot!

If the SRS was going to take power, it would have had to have been via the Soviets; they could win votes in the PR framework but they could never win legitimacy from the point of view of those who framed that thing. I'd make an extra POD, or have evolve from the "no Lenin in Petrograd" POD stipulated, that has the SRS going for power in the Soviets and ignoring, eventually pushing aside, the PG. Still not sure they could have survived, but maybe if they recruited or allied with enough Marxists and made a place in their program for as much industrialization as could be supported without crushing their own base in the peasantry. And somehow delivered on the benefits of industrialization to both their own peasant base and the urban workers, that would also draw in many more elite factions, just as OTL the Bolsheviks did recruit many former Old Regimists in both industry and the military, on patriotic grounds--these people were no populists but they wanted a stronger Russia. I don't see the SRS as being able to be nearly as ruthless as the Bolsheviks and that is their charm, but the only way I see them able to survive in the long run is by succeeding better than the Bolsheviks did at delivering on Bolshevik-style promises.

If you all think that the best outcome for Russia would have been a Western-style regime devoted to private property, I think that is ASB--only a broad and sweeping socialism could possibly be the basis for a democratic Russia. I would not call the Bolshevik regime that did emerge OTL "democratic," but the Soviet Union of the 1920s had some potential for becoming really democratic, and it emerged from a really democratic basis, the Soviets of the February-October period. Without socialism, a socialism both economically more successful than OTL and restrained in its execution of class struggle (but determined nonetheless that the working classes should prevail) the alternatives are not capitalist democracy but rather some kind of dictatorship--as OTL in the name of a vision of future democracy (now deferred in view of the ongoing class warfare), or in the name of even less grand and inherently less humane visions, such as the greater glory of some family that strives to take up the royal mantle dropped by the Romanovs. Or a Russian version of fascism. Or an Orthodox theocracy perhaps. But regardless of what vision they'd serve, they'd be repressive, corrupt regimes. As those go, I really don't think the Bolsheviks were worse than the alternatives.

And they did beat Hitler, you know.
 
That's the big question for this thread, I think. Looking at some old threads, I found some excellent long comments on a similar question:

I agree with much of what Shevek23 had to say there; although I do think there was still a way for the Republican Greens to have won out, it's not as likely as the Marxists still coming out on top, and even the Tsarists had a better chance, it seems.

And, unfortunately, one thing I'll have to point out that it's not at all likely that you'd be able to avoid a Russo-American *Cold War once the Atomic Age comes around; yes, it'd certainly be at least somewhat different from OTL, and possibly even less intense, but the chances of a prolonged standoff are pretty high, especially if the Tsarists become particularly reactionary at some point in time.
 
I would say it's very possible, but at the same time really talking about what it would be is a problem because in essence, the Bolsheviks ended up absorbing every minor party in the conflict who could be brought to their side. And I'm going to say that a White Russia in the sense of the actual leading Whites from OTL is very unlikely. I'd say your best bet for a "different Russia" is something forcing the Bolsheviks to accept a broad based coalition with the other "socialists" across Russia and keeping to it. Don't know what that would be, but me and my professor have both at various times brought up Ungern Sternberg as the man to terrify The Bolsheviks into coalition.
 
The question then becomes will the SR screw things up.

Yes. The answer is yes. Possibly in all caps. If there's one thing my Russian Revolutionary history class has taught me it's that there's nothing the SR's can't fuck up.
 
I would say it's very possible, but at the same time really talking about what it would be is a problem because in essence, the Bolsheviks ended up absorbing every minor party in the conflict who could be brought to their side. And I'm going to say that a White Russia in the sense of the actual leading Whites from OTL is very unlikely. I'd say your best bet for a "different Russia" is something forcing the Bolsheviks to accept a broad based coalition with the other "socialists" across Russia and keeping to it. Don't know what that would be, but me and my professor have both at various times brought up Ungern Sternberg as the man to terrify The Bolsheviks into coalition.

If the Bolsheviks do have to share power in this way, don't they kind of become de facto Mensheviks? Or am I completely failing to understand the ideological differences between the factions? It's just, how can a party be a "vanguard" for Revolution if it's only one faction in a broader governing coalition? For that matter, any such coalition would either need Mensheviks (who don't believe Russia as such is ready for a "socialist revolution" until it undergoes a "bourgeois" one) or the Revolutionary Socialists (whose agrarian populism would make a "true" revolution led by the industrial working class difficult, to say the least); whereas a coalition of these two in no way contradicts their fundamental ideologies or stated goals, I can't really see the Bolsheviks in a coalition and still be "real" Bolsheviks. Am I making sense, or am I just horribly confused about things here?
 
Zinoviev

If the Bolsheviks do have to share power in this way, don't they kind of become de facto Mensheviks? Or am I completely failing to understand the ideological differences between the factions? It's just, how can a party be a "vanguard" for Revolution if it's only one faction in a broader governing coalition? For that matter, any such coalition would either need Mensheviks (who don't believe Russia as such is ready for a "socialist revolution" until it undergoes a "bourgeois" one) or the Revolutionary Socialists (whose agrarian populism would make a "true" revolution led by the industrial working class difficult, to say the least); whereas a coalition of these two in no way contradicts their fundamental ideologies or stated goals, I can't really see the Bolsheviks in a coalition and still be "real" Bolsheviks. Am I making sense, or am I just horribly confused about things here?

If Kaplan kills Lenin and things do not go well for Trotsky then one very real possibility IMHO is a split within the Bolsheviks with Zinoviev leading the "work within the system" branch of the Bolsheviks (quite possibly with the support of Stalin)
 
If the Bolsheviks do have to share power in this way, don't they kind of become de facto Mensheviks? Or am I completely failing to understand the ideological differences between the factions? It's just, how can a party be a "vanguard" for Revolution if it's only one faction in a broader governing coalition? For that matter, any such coalition would either need Mensheviks (who don't believe Russia as such is ready for a "socialist revolution" until it undergoes a "bourgeois" one) or the Revolutionary Socialists (whose agrarian populism would make a "true" revolution led by the industrial working class difficult, to say the least); whereas a coalition of these two in no way contradicts their fundamental ideologies or stated goals, I can't really see the Bolsheviks in a coalition and still be "real" Bolsheviks. Am I making sense?

No one really cared enough about ideological purity for those to be reason they didn't seek working together. It really was just about naked power seeking and in some cases dick waving. Plenty of Left SRs ended up in actual coalition with the Bolsheviks early on, until most of them stormed out in the wake of Brest-Livotsk.

In essence the two socialist groups who mattered where the SRs and the Bolsheviks, you'd think the Mensheviks would have mattered, but they fell apart very quickly after the revolution with no real initiative or idea how to react to the events unfolding around them. Eventually most of them just ended up Bolsheviks or fleeing the country. (The same thing happened to a lot of Left SRs too) The SRs by and large could probably have been won over to coalition wholesale had they not had a habit of being stupid (call me uncharitable, but Kerensky's terrible leadership essentially engineered the October revolution, and after that they essentially fall more into the background after Brest Livotsk), and then Lenin and Trotsky could probably be persuaded to keep to it if they felt like they needed it to win. (which also probably neatly kills war communism since that was largely based on the fact that the Bolsheviks basically only had support in Russian cities) After a while though I'd recomend killing Lenin sometime mid civil war, when the whites defeat is almost a certainty, and Trotsky's abrasive qualities destroying the popular front is a smaller likelyhood, that way you could conceivably avoid coalition destroying disasters like Krondstadt. As a bonus that puts the pro-coalition Bolsheviks Lev Kamenev and Grigory Zinoviev in a position to take power in the party.

From that tenuous point I'd say there'd probably be a few years of setting up for the new economic reality that Russia is going to have to deal with. The inflationary crisis is not going to go away probably, so expect hyper inflation, although I suspect the SR's could plausibly come up with a land collectivization scheme more capable of not falling apart in the first few years (the mere fact they have popular support among the peasants means that their ideas will atleast have a chance of acceptance) so in the very least there probably won't be an immediate famine. From then on though you'd kind of need an actual timeline with clear events, especially in other countries given how a different Russian Revolution probably means a very different reaction in the rest of Europe. The coalition would probably break up at some point in the future, but at the same time I'd say that a Russia that atleast has multi-party system in existence already could hopefully turn out alright.

Although this may not fit the scenario listed because it is still a Soviet Russia. Just a more genuine Soviet system.

EDIT: Of course I should mention this requires most things to go the Bolsheviks way, the problem I see is that you seem to mostly focus on a non-Bolshevik but still Socialist Russia, it's very easy to have a dictatorship come out of the SR mismanagement.
 
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The Bolsheviks. That's basically OTL.

So basically, the only way to meet the OP is to prevent the fall to dictatorship, and the way to do that is to mitigate SR blunders. That right? If so, which mistake after their rise to power would make the best PoD; is it pretty much the war (failure to end, etc)? If so, that brings up how the war itself is affected.

One idea that's been banging about in my head -- supposing, while Austro-Hungary was pursuing a separate peace with the Entente powers, the Provisional Government in Russia agreed to a separate, separate peace with AH, in the hopes of pressuring her allies to do the same and isolate Germany. Is this plausible?
 
One idea that's been banging about in my head -- supposing, while Austro-Hungary was pursuing a separate peace with the Entente powers, the Provisional Government in Russia agreed to a separate, separate peace with AH, in the hopes of pressuring her allies to do the same and isolate Germany. Is this plausible?

Probably not. Russia wasn't willing to end the war (part of the reason there was a revolution in the first place). A peace at that point would probably meant concessions, which no one wanted to do.
 
I believe that a fatal stroke for Lenin any time before the autumn of 1917 would butterfly the Boshevik Coup aka 'the Great October Revolution'
 
I believe that a fatal stroke for Lenin any time before the autumn of 1917 would butterfly the Boshevik Coup aka 'the Great October Revolution'

It's one thing to stop a coup from happening on a certain date; it's another thing to keep people (even broadly defined as non-Bolshevik socialists) in power. The case made in the thread thus far (at least as I understand it) has it that the only way to do the latter is to keep the SR from making key mistakes. Am I mistaken here?
 
I don't think that Kaplan killing Lenin would stabilise SR power in any way, in fact I think the opposite. After the assassination of Volodarsky by SRs in June 1918 Lenin wrote to Zinoviev:

"Only today we have heard at the C.C. that in Petrograd the workers wanted to reply to the murder of Volodarsky by mass terror and that you (not you personally, but the Petrograd Central Committee members, or Petrograd Committee members) restrained them.

I protest most emphatically!

We are discrediting ourselves: we threaten mass terror, even in resolutions of the Soviet of Deputies, yet when it comes to action we obstruct the revolutionary initiative of the masses, a quite correct one."​
- https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/jun/26gyz.htm

I think that the murder of Lenin would have seen mass reprisals against the SRs, greater than there were in OTL, and it wouldn't have been simply the organised terror of the Cheka. After the assassination attempt Red Terror was instated and hundreds of Right SR politicians were executed for obstructing the revolution and the civil war. Imagine if he had been killed?

Also, Derek Jackson, you're completely misappropriating the term 'coup' and completely ignoring the fact that an armed insurrection by the masses was inevitable, whether Lenin was involved or not.
 
Also, Derek Jackson, you're completely misappropriating the term 'coup' and completely ignoring the fact that an armed insurrection by the masses was inevitable, whether Lenin was involved or not.

What made the "armed insurrection of the masses" inevitable? This thread is trying to determine how non-Bolshevik socialists (most likely is the SR) control Russia after March 1917.
 
What made the "armed insurrection of the masses" inevitable? This thread is trying to determine how non-Bolshevik socialists (most likely is the SR) control Russia after March 1917.

The Provisional Government did stupid things such as continuing the war and believing that a patriotic furor would allow them to win, which pissed off many. Also you still had lots of unrest as political conditions changed, nothing really changed socially people where still starving.

I also don't see the SR's keeping power at least alone, they were largely agrarian socialists.
 
I also don't see the SR's keeping power at least alone, they were largely agrarian socialists.

Well, Russia was primarily an agrarian country in 1917, so it seems it should be plausible for a party with primarily agrarian support to govern the country, or at least lead in a governing coalition. I'm also not sure I agree characterizing the war's continuation as "stupid", considering the price Germany OTL made Russia pay for peace; or not even peace, since concluding the war in the west only served to inaugurate the Civil War.
 
Well, Russia was primarily an agrarian country in 1917, so it seems it should be plausible for a party with primarily agrarian support to govern the country, or at least lead in a governing coalition. I'm also not sure I agree characterizing the war's continuation as "stupid", considering the price Germany OTL made Russia pay for peace; or not even peace, since concluding the war in the west only served to inaugurate the Civil War.

You do realize that Russia was in no shape to fight even before the war and that years of an immensely unpopular war did havoc to popular support as well. The Civil War was well underway before the treaty of Brest-Livotsk if anything that gave the Boshevik's breathing room. I still would doubt the SR's being ascendant, they would still have to deal the Kadet's. The possibility of the Bolshevik's not wanting to play ball, as well conservative elements, and the possibility of nationalist uprisings.
 
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