The Prince's Survival

JonasResende

JonasResende

Bells rang up and down the Spanish countryside, relaying the message. Ringing tidings of joy. The prince[1] was saved. He had recovered from the illness which had stricken him after attending Vespers on the eve of the second anniversary of her Majesty, D. Isabel's death.

[1] Prince Baltasar Carlos died on 9 October 1646, here he has survived.
 

jb3

JonasResende said:
Bells rang up and down the Spanish countryside, relaying the message. Ringing tidings of joy. The prince[1] was saved. He had recovered from the illness which had stricken him after attending Vespers on the eve of the second anniversary of her Majesty, D. Isabel's death.

[1] Prince Baltasar Carlos died on 9 October 1646, here he has survived.
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I always wondered why a surviving Baltasar Carlos thread never seems to survive long. His survival butterflies quite a bit.

A healthy Carlos II (or Baltasar I) who survives as long as his half-brother (say to 1700) means no War of Spanish Succession, the Bourbons don't take Spain (at least Philip V doesn't and he stays in France as Duke of Anjou which might in itself butterfly away the death of his older brother OR his younger brother, Charles- both of whom he was extremely close to - or if not would mean Philip becomes Regent for Louis XV).

Baltasar Carlos would almost certainly marry first cousin Mariana of Austria (instead of his father) and might produce at least one or more surviving children who could produce children themselves. No Carlos the Bewitched to throw Spain into a turmoil. And if Mariana dies before him, he might marry again (perhaps one of the Neuberg girls as OTL Charles II did) and produce non-inbred offspring. The Hapsburgs will survive in Spain for at least one generation more and without the War of Spanish Succession some of the alliances (William of Orange and the Hapsburgs) might never come into being. Louis XIV will probably look to Italy to establish his younger grandsons and Charles VI of Austria would never fight for the Spanish throne, be separated from his wife for years and might produce a son.

Many things in European history changes if B-C lives to become King of Spain.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

jb3 said:
Baltasar Carlos would almost certainly marry first cousin Mariana of Austria (instead of his father) and might produce at least one or more surviving children who could produce children themselves.
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Simon said:
Jesus, I knew the Habsburgs liked to keep things in the family but still. ;)
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Yes, marrying his father would be quite beyond even Habsburg norms.:p

Actually, have you actually looked at Iberian royal marriage practices? Uncle/niece was NORMAL. Sheesh. It's a wonder they lasted as long as they did.
 
Simon

Simon

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
Actually, have you actually looked at Iberian royal marriage practices? Uncle/niece was NORMAL. Sheesh. It's a wonder they lasted as long as they did.
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Yeah, as I understand things it started back when different branches of the family started ruling the Spanish Empire and Austrian Empire separately but they wanted to keep the two sides linked.
 

Yorel

Simon said:
Yeah, as I understand things it started back when different branches of the family started ruling the Spanish Empire and Austrian Empire separately but they wanted to keep the two sides linked.
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Actually, in regards to the Spanish branch, it was also quite a common practice before the Hapsburg ruled Spain. If you look at the royal marriages in the Kingdoms of Castille, Aragon and Portugal, you also have quite a few uncle/niece marriage.
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

1647 - Vienna is en fête, the elder surviving daughter of Ferdinand III and his recently deceased Spanish wife, Maria Anna, has been in negotiations to strengthen the bonds between the Habsburgs in Spain and the Imperial House. All that remains is for the dispensation to come from Rome regarding the marriage (Maria Anna and Baltasar Carlos are first cousins, after all). And once the Emperor has pulled off that marriage, he sees no reason why he should further delay the marriage of his older surviving son, also named Ferdinand (who was crowned king of Bohemia the previous year) who stands to be crowned king of Hungary later in the year.

Ferdinand III is casting his eye towards D. Felipe IV's daughter, Maria Teresa. Of course, there is news on other fronts, too. Namely that the cousin of the French king, that fabulously wealthy heiress, Anne Marie Louise d'Orléans, duchesse de Montpensier (styled Mademoiselle at the French court as the eldest unmarried female), is tossing her hat into the ring to be the new empress. To D. Felipe and the late Empress' sister, Queen Anne, it looks as though 20-year-old Mademoiselle might have divorced herself from the idea of marrying the currently 8-year-old king of France. However, Cardinal Mazarin (Anne's chief adviser and the wags whisper, secret husband) doesn't like the idea - especially since such a marriage would give Mademoiselle's husband (who just happens to be the Emperor, and the enemy) a sizeable estate in France, or a sizeable purse if said lady were to be compensated for said estates. Neither of which he particularly likes the Habsburgs getting their hands on.

Of course, England's queen - who just happens to be the late French king's sister - is looking at Mademoiselle with rather covetuous eyes as a match for the prince of Wales. With the young lady's fortune, they could finance enough troops to help fight the war going on over the Channel. However,several members of the queen's court-in-exile point out that such a match would hardly be fortuitous, despite the amount of gold Mademoiselle could bring. England has turned rather anti-French as well as anti-Catholic as a result of the queen's wheeling and dealing. So, for all her coin, Mademoiselle might be the nail in the coffin of the monarchy in those Isles.
 

jb3

Habsburg inbreeding practices aside I am interested in what others think the consequences of no War of Spanish Succession (or if there is one with different players) given the Habsburgs survive in Spain for AT LEAST one (and maybe more) generation. This means no Bourbon Spain, no Austrian branch of the Family fighting for the Spanish Empire and the Duke of Anjou stays in France as a French dynast. I think in that situation there is at least a chance that one or both of his brothers (particularly the Duke of Berri who fell from his horse) survives, there is probably no potential French succession crisis, no great alliance between England and the HRE and a possibility (just a possibility) that Baltasar Carlos or his heir (I'll give him at least one healthy child) is a reformer in Spain ala Charles III.
 

Richter von Manthofen

A surviving Spanish habsburg dynasty would prevent that Austria is fighting much in Italy (That was Spains domain). OTL the HAbsburgs gained Naples Sardinia Lombardia and the Spanish Netherlands. Without those aquisitions (all lost within 150 years after much struggle) would mean Austria would focus more on the East and Germany - the Turkish wars were resumend after the War of Spanish sucession - What if the Austrians (under Eugen) continue soon after 1700 to harass the Turks? What happens if the Serbs (Belgrade and south) are "liberated" sooner than OTL and are a century ore more loyal subjects? Would Austria add after transilvania the Black sea coast arund teh Danube delta to its posessions.

Or might Austria make a bid for more territory in Germany (I believe they wanted to get Bavaria at one time)

THE War of Spanish sucession shifted Priorities, but coninuing Spanish HAbsburgs will take the shift a different direction.
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

I'm gonna violate my own continuity here and give my readers the choice of which scenario they would prefer.

P.S. I've been toying with this scenario for a while, but rather than create a completely separate timeline, I decided to work it in here.

Let me know via PM which you'd prefer.

1647 - Vienna is en fête, the elder surviving daughter of Ferdinand III and his recently deceased Spanish wife, Maria Anna, has been in negotiations to strengthen the bonds between the Habsburgs in Spain and the Imperial House. All that remains is for the dispensation to come from Rome regarding the marriage (Maria Anna and Baltasar Carlos are first cousins, after all). And once the Emperor has pulled off that marriage, he sees no reason why he should further delay the marriage of his older surviving son, also named Ferdinand (who was crowned king of Bohemia the previous year) who stands to be crowned king of Hungary later in the year.

Ferdinand III is casting his eye towards D. Felipe IV's daughter, Maria Teresa to marry his elder son. Of course, there is news on other fronts, too. Namely that the cousin of the French king, that fabulously wealthy heiress, Anne Marie Louise d'Orléans, duchesse de Montpensier, and widow of the Cardinal-Infante Fernando, Governor of the Spanish Netherlands, is tossing her hat into the ring to be the new empress. Her only pregnancy by the infante resulted in a daughter - the Infanta Maria Luisa Margarita. After the Infante's untimely death (when the rumors had been flying that he had planned to declare himself as independent ruler of the Netherlands) the widowed Madame-Infante has been living in Brussels with her daughter - who much like herself, will be the greatest heiress of the age when she grows up. The reason? This currently 6-year-old infanta is in line for the Spanish throne, and due to the marriage contract stipulating that no son issuing from the duchesse's marriage could inherit her properties in France, any man who marries her will pass the five duchies, and numerous other French properties of Madame-Infante to his son. This of course, is assuming that Madame-Infante produces no sons by another husband.

Of course, at the same time that Madame-Infante is offering herself for the position of Empress-Consort, she's also offering her daughter to her former sister-in-law (and aunt), the French regent, Queen Anne, to marry the currently 9-year-old Louis XIV.

On the other hand, Henriette Marie, Queen of England (who just happens to be another of Madame-Infante's aunts, as sister of the late king) is eyeing the widowed governess of the Netherlands as a match for the prince of Wales. With the young lady's fortune, they could finance enough troops to help fight the war going on over the Channel. And as a double insurance policy way of making sure that at least part of the fortune still ends up in Stuart hands if the lady is unwilling (as she's rumored to be), a match between the prince of Wales and the little infanta is also booted around. However,several members of the queen's court-in-exile point out that such a match would hardly be fortuitous, despite the amount of gold Madame-Infante could bring. England has turned rather anti-French as well as anti-Catholic as a result of the queen's wheeling and dealing. Also, those with longer memories can still smell the fires of Smithfield where the heretics were burned by the Catholic Queen Mary I and her Spanish husband - which is theoretically what Maria Luisa would be seen as: a Spaniard. So, for all their coin, Madame-Infante or her daughtermight be the nail in the coffin of the monarchy in those Isles.
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

JonasResende said:
I'm gonna violate my own continuity here and give my readers the choice of which scenario they would prefer.

P.S. I've been toying with this scenario for a while, but rather than create a completely separate timeline, I decided to work it in here.

Let me know via PM which you'd prefer.

1647 - Vienna is en fête, the elder surviving daughter of Ferdinand III and his recently deceased Spanish wife, Maria Anna, has been in negotiations to strengthen the bonds between the Habsburgs in Spain and the Imperial House. All that remains is for the dispensation to come from Rome regarding the marriage (Maria Anna and Baltasar Carlos are first cousins, after all). And once the Emperor has pulled off that marriage, he sees no reason why he should further delay the marriage of his older surviving son, also named Ferdinand (who was crowned king of Bohemia the previous year) who stands to be crowned king of Hungary later in the year.

Ferdinand III is casting his eye towards D. Felipe IV's daughter, Maria Teresa to marry his elder son. Of course, there is news on other fronts, too. Namely that the cousin of the French king, that fabulously wealthy heiress, Anne Marie Louise d'Orléans, duchesse de Montpensier, and widow of the Cardinal-Infante Fernando, Governor of the Spanish Netherlands, is tossing her hat into the ring to be the new empress. Her only pregnancy by the infante resulted in a daughter - the Infanta Maria Luisa Margarita. After the Infante's untimely death (when the rumors had been flying that he had planned to declare himself as independent ruler of the Netherlands) the widowed Madame-Infante has been living in Brussels with her daughter - who much like herself, will be the greatest heiress of the age when she grows up. The reason? This currently 6-year-old infanta is in line for the Spanish throne, and due to the marriage contract stipulating that no son issuing from the duchesse's marriage could inherit her properties in France, any man who marries her will pass the five duchies, and numerous other French properties of Madame-Infante to his son. This of course, is assuming that Madame-Infante produces no sons by another husband.

Of course, at the same time that Madame-Infante is offering herself for the position of Empress-Consort, she's also offering her daughter to her former sister-in-law (and aunt), the French regent, Queen Anne, to marry the currently 9-year-old Louis XIV.

On the other hand, Henriette Marie, Queen of England (who just happens to be another of Madame-Infante's aunts, as sister of the late king) is eyeing the widowed governess of the Netherlands as a match for the prince of Wales. With the young lady's fortune, they could finance enough troops to help fight the war going on over the Channel. And as a double insurance policy way of making sure that at least part of the fortune still ends up in Stuart hands if the lady is unwilling (as she's rumored to be), a match between the prince of Wales and the little infanta is also booted around. However,several members of the queen's court-in-exile point out that such a match would hardly be fortuitous, despite the amount of gold Madame-Infante could bring. England has turned rather anti-French as well as anti-Catholic as a result of the queen's wheeling and dealing. Also, those with longer memories can still smell the fires of Smithfield where the heretics were burned by the Catholic Queen Mary I and her Spanish husband - which is theoretically what Maria Luisa would be seen as: a Spaniard. So, for all their coin, Madame-Infante or her daughter might be the nail in the coffin of the monarchy in those Isles.
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I'm assuming that the lack of response in this scenario indicates I should stick to the first idea?:confused:
 

Richter von Manthofen

I am fine with each of those scenarios.

As long as they enable a "war of Austrian sucession" Where the Spanish HAbsburgs try to rejoin the 2 branches (Maria Teresia marrying a spanish cousin?)
 
Valena

Valena

The second scenario is interesting, but complicated, as PoD in 1641 - Fernando NOT Dying and Anne-Marie-Louise agreeing to marry to him, creates so many butterflies by 1646, that Baltasar Carlos' appendicitis may be the lesser of them.
If the second scenario is realized, then we can see this be "Devolution War come early" for Spain and France, and it retroactively pushes the TL as early as that very 1641.
I'm not against this, but the possibilities emerging from the scenario are CRAZY, not to mention Felipe IV was against the match, thinking his younger brother will use it to fulfill its ambitions.
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

Valena said:
The second scenario is interesting, but complicated, as PoD in 1641 - Fernando NOT Dying and Anne-Marie-Louise agreeing to marry to him, creates so many butterflies by 1646, that Baltasar Carlos' appendicitis may be the lesser of them.
If the second scenario is realized, then we can see this be "Devolution War come early" for Spain and France, and it retroactively pushes the TL as early as that very 1641.
I'm not against this, but the possibilities emerging from the scenario are CRAZY, not to mention Felipe IV was against the match, thinking his younger brother will use it to fulfill its ambitions.
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So then Queen Anne (the staunchest supporter of this match) was anti-Felipe at that point? But I am aware of Felipe's paranoia (inspired by Olivares) that his brothers were out to steal his crown. Maybe if he hadn't been so paranoid, the Spanish Habsburgs would've been in better shape by 1650.

That said, Fernando is dead, the daughter was posthumous: I figured he had a posthumous bastard daughter OTL, so why not a legitimate one here. Also, la Grande Mademoiselle did beg her aunt (Anne) and Mazarin to let her marry the recently-widowed emperor since she wanted a court of her own.
 
Valena

Valena

JonasResende said:
So then Queen Anne (the staunchest supporter of this match) was anti-Felipe at that point? But I am aware of Felipe's paranoia (inspired by Olivares) that his brothers were out to steal his crown. Maybe if he hadn't been so paranoid, the Spanish Habsburgs would've been in better shape by 1650.
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Yes, sort of.
But the marriage happening in the first time leads to its very own can of worms, depending on its stipulations.
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

I was wondering if an earlier death of D. Felipe (say sometime in the 1650s) would change Spain's foreign policy (especially the rebellion in Naples and the wars with Portugal and France) as well as her financial state of affairs much?

Thoughts?
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

What does everyone think, with a surviving heir, does D. Felipe remarry? Or just content himself to making bastards with future nuns? And if he does marry, who do you think should be the new queen of Spain?

Awaiting your input expectantly.
 

jb3

JonasResende said:
What does everyone think, with a surviving heir, does D. Felipe remarry? Or just content himself to making bastards with future nuns? And if he does marry, who do you think should be the new queen of Spain?

Awaiting your input expectantly.
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I imagine he does marry since B-C is his only surviving son. Who I don't know but as long as its not a closely related Hapsburg there's a chance of surviving children (like his illegitimate son Don Juan) and more Spanish Habsburgs in the next generation. Further butterflying away the War of Spanish Succession.
 
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