WI: A more proactive Japan

In OTL, Japan's first contact with the West was during the height of Sengoku period, though its development was hampered by the Tokugawa shogunate in the 1600s by putting the entire country into near-total seclusion. The rest is history.

But, what if Japan opened up to the world much, much earlier?

Let's say at some point around the late Heian period up to the early feudal era, Japan decided to try and look outwards to know her neighbors more, assumed a more proactive approach with regards to trade and foreign relations with Korea and Imperial China and, maybe, decided to transform herself into a maritime-oriented power centuries earlier than OTL.

Assuming the Japanese successfully established firm and relations with the polities of East/Southeast Asia in a much earlier timeframe, how long before they venture out beyond the Pacific and, by chance, reach the Americas before (or at least around the same time as) the Europeans?

How will Japanese history turn out ITTL?
 
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The rise of Christianity and China's enforcements of Haijin greatly influenced Japan's OTL decision to enforce Sengoku. Japan's going to have to figure out how to refute both factors before deciding to open up, and that's going to be quite hard.
 
The rise of Christianity and China's enforcements of Haijin greatly influenced Japan's OTL decision to enforce Sengoku. Japan's going to have to figure out how to refute both factors before deciding to open up, and that's going to be quite hard.

How about Japanese traders making contact with Christians in China or India before the Europeans themselves set foot on Japan?

About haijin, I think it might be butterflied away if TTL's Japan cooperated with China in fighting Wako piracy.
 
How about Japanese traders making contact with Christians in China or India before the Europeans themselves set foot on Japan?

About haijin, I think it might be butterflied away if TTL's Japan cooperated with China in fighting Wako piracy.

Considering the Nanban trade, I can consider that a possibility, although also knowing it took decades of careful thought and experience to decide to close the borders I doubt it changes a lot of things.

Furthermore, surprisingly enough, a majority of the pirate-bandits weren't Japanese; Ming records point to most being of Chinese descent. Also these pirates also raided Japanese islands, so it's possible to say the government simply lacked the capabilities to hold an offensive against them.
 
Why would Japanese ships go east when they could go west to India and south to Java and Srivijaya instead? Profits would be much more certain than just sending ships into the void.

How about this? Japanese traders go further and further south and eventually end up meeting Polynesians who tell them of more islands in the big-ass ocean to the east. After much time the Japanese-Polynesian trade network reaches as far as Easter Island, until one unfortunate ship gets blown east to the Incas. When Columbus is landing at the Antilles, the Japanese will meanwhile be making contact with the Incas in Peru. Five centuries should be enough time to build up sailing technology and a trade network that reaches across the Pacific.
 
Why would Japanese ships go east when they could go west to India and south to Java and Srivijaya instead? Profits would be much more certain than just sending ships into the void.

How about this? Japanese traders go further and further south and eventually end up meeting Polynesians who tell them of more islands in the big-ass ocean to the east. After much time the Japanese-Polynesian trade network reaches as far as Easter Island, until one unfortunate ship gets blown east to the Incas. When Columbus is landing at the Antilles, the Japanese will meanwhile be making contact with the Incas in Peru. Five centuries should be enough time to build up sailing technology and a trade network that reaches across the Pacific.

...and why would they go that far south?
 
Why would Japanese ships go east when they could go west to India and south to Java and Srivijaya instead? Profits would be much more certain than just sending ships into the void.

I said it in the OP. Japan will establish relations with SEA polities first (and later India), before they get curious on what lies further in the East.

How about this? Japanese traders go further and further south and eventually end up meeting Polynesians who tell them of more islands in the big-ass ocean to the east. After much time the Japanese-Polynesian trade network reaches as far as Easter Island, until one unfortunate ship gets blown east to the Incas. When Columbus is landing at the Antilles, the Japanese will meanwhile be making contact with the Incas in Peru. Five centuries should be enough time to build up sailing technology and a trade network that reaches across the Pacific.

This is pretty much similar to the idea I have in mind.

...and why would they go that far south?

It wouldn't be that far fetched to have a few Japanese ships being drifted further into the Pacific by chance, eh?
 
Trading, same as the Chinese did. I'm not saying they end up in New Zealand; the scenario is that they go just a bit further than the Chinese actually did.

The expeditions the Chinese held during the height of the Ming dyasty weren't for trade, and that reached East Africa only because the Indian Ocean's currents lead to that route. Go directly south and all you get is potential diseases, typhoons and a myriad of islands with barely anything in them.

It wouldn't be that far fetched to have a few Japanese ships being drifted further into the Pacific by chancd, eh?

Japanese ship designs were surprisingly weak at high seas; there's a reason the nanban trade hung the coast. Furthermore unlike the Europeans the Japanese have no real need to reach somewhere.
I, for one, welcome our Catholic Japanese allies in the north.

And I fart in the generally southeastern direction.
 
But the POD is around 1100-1200s. Goryeo is still alive.

Then we could ask why Goryeo didn't reach Polynesia and so forth OTL. Or the Europeans, for that matter, with their excellent ships - and the answer becomes obvious. Because the only thing that really mattered was India(and the coastal regions of the Indian Ocean), China, and the trade routes that connected the two. The Japanese don't even favour the spices from Southeast Asia that the Europeans were crazy for.
 
Then we could ask why Goryeo didn't reach Polynesia and so forth OTL. Or the Europeans, for that matter, with their excellent ships - and the answer becomes obvious. Because the only thing that really mattered was India(and the coastal regions of the Indian Ocean), China, and the trade routes that connected the two. The Japanese don't even favour the spices from Southeast Asia that the Europeans were crazy for.

Goryeo probably never had any interest in maritime exploration, they're pretty much contented with her relations with China, and at this point they're pretty much focused towards the hordes of the north.
 
Goryeo probably never had any interest in maritime exploration, they're pretty much contented with her relations with China, and at this point they're pretty much focused towards the hordes of the north.

Goryo merchants had a far-reaching influence, with records of them being found even in Central Asia and the Middle East; Joseon was nothing compared to them. They were very active in international trade and can even be said to be the precursor to the nanban trade. No, Goryo was extremely mercantile and if they didn't reach the southern end of Southeast Asia there's a reason for it.
 
Goryo merchants had a far-reaching influence, with records of them being found even in Central Asia and the Middle East; Joseon was nothing compared to them. They were very active in international trade and can even be said to be the precursor to the nanban trade. No, Goryo was extremely mercantile and if they didn't reach the southern end of Southeast Asia there's a reason for it.

Point taken. But I think we're already a bit far from the topic.

Wouldn't it be possible for TTL Japan to copy Chinese/Korean ship design and improve it?
 
Point taken. But I think we're already a bit far from the topic.

Wouldn't it be possible for TTL Japan to copy Chinese/Korean ship design and improve it?

As said before, yes - but that doesn't change the fact that there's no reason for them to pursue the southern end of Southeast Asia, and if they were swept by some wind, they'd most likely try to return as soon as possible.
 
Point taken. But I think we're already a bit far from the topic.

Wouldn't it be possible for TTL Japan to copy Chinese/Korean ship design and improve it?

I think zeppelinair is saying that there's just no reason for Japan to do this stuff. And certainly, Japan can improve the design if they want - but then they just won't have the will to use it.
 
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