AHC: Have the Roman Republic Last

I haven't seen much threads about the Roman Republic on these forums, so I decided to make this; find a way to make the Roman Republic Last until modern times.

I'd prefer having a date equal to or before Gaius Gracchus' assassination (121 BC), but dates after are acceptable.

Radical reforms can take place, but Rome can't simply get rid of the Senate, or Consuls. For example, you can raise the assembly (Pleb Senate) and give it the same power as the Senate; but you can't completely scrap everything.

As a side question: With the Roman Republic; would ideas spread/pop up much easier than in the Empire? Suppose Hero's Steam Engine was invested in from by the Roman state? Could Hero attach it a small sailboat with motors, inventing the first motor-ship? Other examples could be followed with Galen, or Ptolemy. Or things such as Flexible Glass.

JoshuaTheRoman said:

As a side question: With the Roman Republic; would ideas spread/pop up much easier than in the Empire? Suppose Hero's Steam Engine was invested in from the Roman state? Could Hero attach it a small sailboat with motors, inventing the first motor-ship? Other examples could be followed with Galen, or Ptolemy.

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I can answer the steam power bit. The answer was that steam power was too inefficient at the time for it to really be worth anything. This thread goes into some details about the actual issue there.

Mr. Magi said:

I can answer the steam power bit. The answer was that steam power was too inefficient at the time for it to really be worth anything. This thread goes into some details about the actual issue there.

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What would be the most Hero could do with his Steam engine; or would it just stay as a cool novelty/toy? Suppose Rome still continues to prosper with occasional outstanding inventors/doctors appearing every 20 years or so, what year would you predict it is until some Roman manages to make a practical Steam Engine? What could that Steam Engine be used for?

To have the ROman republic survive you have to do a few things

-no rapid expansion-seriously, Rome took over territories so fast they didn't have time to adapt-consider that in 264 they had just finished the conquest of Italy to the Po-you can figure out how fast they expanded in the next century and a half.
-preferrably no large expansion at all. This is difficult
-no professional army

JoshuaTheRoman said:

What would be the most Hero could do with his Steam engine; or would it just stay as a cool novelty/toy? Suppose Rome still continues to prosper with occasional outstanding inventors/doctors appearing every 20 years or so, what year would you predict it is until some Roman manages to make a practical Steam Engine? What could that Steam Engine be used for?

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Any chance for any serious technological development (and it's still a small chance in the time frame we are talking about) would have to occur in a longer lasting Hellenistic era-which means Roman growth has to be stopped. Which could also, incidentally, contribute to the survival of the republic.

Marcus Livius Drusus

My Roman Republic knowledge starts around 110 with Marius (thank you First Man in Rome series), so that's definitely post Grachhus Brothers, if only by a decade or two.

I think the best chance for a possible, long term republic are a clean passing in the senate of Marcus Livius Drusus' proposed reforms.

First: increase the size of the Senate from 300 to 600.

Second: land reform to aide the plebeian classes.

Third: grant all the Italian states Roman citizenship.

Political participation increases, the under classes become more invested, political participation and investment in the success of Rome fully extends to the whole peninsula, and the damage of the Social Wars and hopefully the worst of the butterflies it created is avoided (no long Mithraites War, no Sulla faction vs Marius facton civil war, legon march on Rome taboo first broken [not actually the Rubicon] the proscripton of poltical enemies, subsequent rise of Caesar vs the Boni, etc,)

The first two proposals had enough across the political spectrum to possibly pass. The third ran into difficulty and then went totally in the crapper when it was discovered Drusus had arranged for all those Italian States to become his personal clients once they received citizenship. And then of course Drusus gets assassinated.

The third reform would have been near impossible to pass, but if it somehow could of, the Republic might, might, have had a damn good shot at lasting a good long time.

On the other hand, never underestimate a Roman Senator's arrogant, self serving, bribibal interest/ordained by the gods superior privileges to undermine the greater good in any circumstance. Let alone a couple hundred of them acting that way every moment of each and every day.

As professor Badian has demonstrated, Drusus' reform could not succeed. It was doomed because too many italians refused to pay the price (giving lands for the "old" romans) in exchange for citizenship.

I can see 2 key moments :
- the time of Gaius Flaminius just before the 2nd punic war. It is just à guess because sources are very thin but this man may have been some kind of pre-popularis leader and might have been an important reformer if he had not died in the war.

- the time of the Gracchi and especially the time if Gaius Gracchus who was more talented than his elder brother. Have Gaius Gracchus and his main ally Fulvius Flaccus expose the manipulation of Drusus the elder and his allies and have one of them or one of their allies being elected consul for 121 and many things could change.

If the Roman Republic is to survive long term, they have to have massive constitutional changes. Also, figure out how to have an army without allowing generals to take over regularly. Also, ....

Very difficult task.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/search.php?searchid=16932599

Should produce a fair number of helpful hits.

There's a few parts of the Roman Constitution that became archaic as its society evolved, and I don't think sly's solution of suppressing their growth is really that much of a solution.

- The Comitia Centuriata, which elected the Consuls and was possibly the most important of the Comitia, was far too stacked in favor of the aristocracy. The aristocratic centuries were over-represented, and they voted in order of wealth, so that the poorer voting centuries often never even got a chance to vote. Make the spread more equitable, and the voting order random (the Comitia Tributa was random), and you'll see the average soldier, even in the post-Marian military, with a greater vested interest in the established political order.

- The office of Plebeian Tribune was far too easily abused (it got to the point where they'd veto opponents' speeches on their last day of office, just to be dicks). Sulla went too far, but its worth moderating.

- Conversely, the office of Dictator could be protected. It was never really discredited, but it went out of fashion and replaced with the Senatus Consultum Ultimum. Its worth noting that nobody who was ever an actual Dictator ever really caused too much trouble for the Republic, but these SCU Dictators (for lack of a better shorthand) included Sulla and Caesar, and we know how that ended up. The role of the original Dictators was far more established and restrained, when you got down to it. Hell, the Romans used to appoint Dictators just to administer elections when the Consuls were out of town.

- As a benefit to Rome, in general, rather than political stability specifically, coming to accommodation with the Socii peacefully probably would be a good idea. In particular, if there's a practical way to incorporate the highly Romanized inhabitants of Italy into the government, the entire peninsula might prove to be a bulwark against instability.

Of course, its worth pointing out that the two people that did the most active damage to the Roman Republic, Sulla and Caesar, (Marius certainly didn't help, either) were both trying to fix it and included plenty of legitimately valid reforms that would have helped, had their methods not been so destabilizing.

Oh, and just as a plug, my current timeline is working on maintaining a *very* long lasting Roman Republic. Its already peacefully incorporated the Carthaginians into the political structure.