The Church approves of Banking?

[Faeelin]

This is an idle thought....

But could we figure out a way for the Vatican to approve of banking, and even take part in it?

I'm reminded of the way that Hinduism had no problem with usury, and the wya that sangha in India acted as banks at one point in time.

Perhaps a recognition that peasants need credit, even if usury is wrong? Faith based banking?

[Nosb]

1.) Jews are less well-of economically and are more centrated around the Med. European monarchs wouldn't try to get them to move deeper into the interior of Europe if they don't need their economic skills, although Jewish merchants will still be active through Europe. Also, probably less anti-Semitism/possible earlier assimilation of Jews in mass on a modern level - high intermarriage rights in Europe in North America - as opposed to the small, wealthy Jews that converted to keep power when anti-Jewish measures were enacted. Examples of this type include the Conversos in Spain and small number of Polish Jews that were assimilated into the Prussian nobility. Wikipedia used to have a good article on this and some mirror sites continue to, but the wiki article was deleted for some reason, I suspect anti-Semites trying to limit information about the large number of "Aryan" Prussian military men who had partial Jewish ancestry.

2.) Earlier industrialization. A lot of pre-industrial economic development that made the Industrial Revolution possible required large amounts of capital that was impossible to raise except on credit. I read somewhere that the Rothschilds made a good amount of money funding industrialization because they were the only ones with a large amount of money that could lend it.

[NapoleonXIV]

According to Wiki the Lateran Treaty of 1929 redefined Usury as taking "excessive" profit rather than just any and allowed the Vatican Bank to operate as a real institution.

The Medici were Bankers, and they were also Medici Popes, so one or another of them might have redefined Usury earlier. It might even be a reform introduced by the Council of Trent, to replace the revenue lost from selling indugences.

That seems oversimplified though.

How about if one of the Lay Orders of the 12thc is founded by St. Pierpont. His brothers use Banking to make money to help the poor, following the Doctrine of the Holy Abundance. (Banks use interest to allow them to actually create more money, in this way they emulate God)

[Condottiero]

I have not found the reference about his theories on the time value of money, but if you have the ideas of the jesuit Luis de Molina (XVI century) fully accepted by the church...

http://www3.nd.edu/~afreddos/papers/molina.htm#4

Another reference on the School of Salamanca:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_...anca#Economics

[fortyseven]

Save the Templars

[Hendryk]

Well, Matthew 25:14-29 could be interpreted as a justification for earning interest. There have been more disingenuous interpretations of the Gospels.

"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

BTW I've always been puzzled by the blatant unfairness of the master's decision. "Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him"? That sure doesn't tie in with the rest of Jesus's teachings.

[MerryPrankster]

Hendryk,

I think in the context it seems like he's talking about people who waste their God-given talents--even the base talent will be taken away.

I agree that there will be less anti-Semitism, since I think the money situation had something to do with it.

[Max Sinister]

@Hendryk: Although I also know the explanation with talents meaning not money but abilities, I want to point out one thing: This could be a description by Jesus "That's how the world IS, not how it's supposed to be." Note that he doesn't say "And that's good the way it is.", as he does at many other opportunities. After all, he also said "my empire isn't from this world". And only one evangelist (Matthew) wrote the story down.

In Germany, there's a proverb: "The devil always shits on the biggest heap" - those who have most, will get most.

[MerryPrankster]

Max,

Usually when Jesus is talking about a man going away for awhile and then returning to settle accounts with his servants, he's talking about Himself.

[Hendryk]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

I think in the context it seems like he's talking about people who waste their God-given talents--even the base talent will be taken away.

But if he's talking about talents in the sense of abilities, how could they be taken from one person and given to another?

Also I didn't quote the last verse from that passage, Matthew 25:30, which hints that the mere failure to make one's talents fructify is enough to warrant eternal damnation:

And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now to get back on topic, I wonder if this would make much of a difference regarding antisemitism. For all we know it would just provide one more incentive to persecute the Jews, since they compete with good Christian bankers. Certainly in OTL the growth of capitalism in post-Reformation Europe didn't make antisemitism go away.

[MrP]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

But if he's talking about talents in the sense of abilities, how could they be taken from one person and given to another?

Also I didn't quote the last verse from that passage, Matthew 25:30, which hints that the mere failure to make one's talents fructify is enough to warrant eternal damnation:

God helps those who help themselves, I s'pose. Ties in with despair and indolence being big no-nos.

I agree with suggestions that this'll decrease Jewish influence in Europe - or rather modify it. Provided they aren't discriminated against in some big new way, they may just go into other professions.

[Ghost 88]

Originally Posted by MrP

God helps those who help themselves, I s'pose. Ties in with despair and indolence being big no-nos.

I agree with suggestions that this'll decrease Jewish influence in Europe - or rather modify it. Provided they aren't discriminated against in some big new way, they may just go into other professions.

They might even become Doctors or Lawyers