These Hills Sing of Saxon Kings

[Thermopylae]

Originally Posted by Merrick

The Angevins (who had lost Sicily following the Vespers, but still held Naples) were very close to the French crown (this is where the eventual French claim to Naples came from). OTL, in 1382 Joan of Naples was murdered by Charles of Durazzo, who seized the kingdom. Joan's chosen heir (though not her closest relative) was Louis of Anjou, who was the younger son of a French king and even Regent of France in 1380-2. Louis did manage to take Provence, but failed to recover Naples.

How about if the murder occurs earlier or Charles V of France lives longer and is prepared to support his brother's claim by force of arms?

Yeah but remember, the Angevins are nothing more than a minor French family ITTL. That is in all likelihood butterflied away.

But, I could create a setup similar to that. Hmm...

[Merrick]

Originally Posted by Thermopylae

Yeah but remember, the Angevins are nothing more than a minor French family ITTL. That is in all likelihood butterflied away.

Who is ruling Sicily ITTL?
Frederick II is in, so the Normans must have died out as OTL and the Staufens taken over. The Staufens fail in turn, precipitating the Interregnum. I don't think you said what happens to Sicily. Does Manfred take over?
OTL Manfred became leader of the Ghibellines and was duly excommunicated by the Pope who (after offering the crown to Richard of Cornwall at one point) eventually persuaded the French to invade and overthrow him.
ITTL the Interregnum is shorter and the Popes are reconciled with the new Emperors. OTOH, the Premsylids aren't likely to be too keen on a surviving Staufen (even a bastard one) controlling a rich kingdom on the Empire's border. So I can see Manfred being undermined as OTL.
But who takes the Kingdom? If it's not the French, then the Guelph/Ghibelline wars will be reduced (which fits with the rest of the TL - I hadn't realised how active the French were in supporting the Guelphs).
Your map shows Naples and Sicily united, so no Sicilian Vespers. Sicily is much the most powerful state in Italy and whoever rules it (and it could be anyone) will be a big player in the Mediterranean.

How about this? In the 1260s, an Imperial army, with the blessing of the Pope, overthrows Manfred in Sicily. Apulia is granted to the Pope, and the rest of the kingdom is granted to a pro-Imperial baron, who rules it as an Imperial vassal. The new Sicilian ruling house marries into several other royal houses, including those of France and Aragon. Two or three generations later, the main line of the Sicilian dynasty dies out. The nearest heir is a French count, the cousin of the King of France. His claim is disputed by the Premsylid emperors, who claim the right of appointment to the vacant fief. The French counterclaim that since the new King of Sicily is a vassal of the French King, Sicily (like Provence & Burgundy) should now be regarded as a French rather than an Imperial vassal. The French candidate brings an army into Italy to enforce his claim; he is supported by Venice and the Florentines (who are looking to break free of Imperial overlordship) but opposed by the Pope. Fun commences.

[Thermopylae]

Originally Posted by Merrick

Who is ruling Sicily ITTL?
Frederick II is in, so the Normans must have died out as OTL and the Staufens taken over. The Staufens fail in turn, precipitating the Interregnum. I don't think you said what happens to Sicily. Does Manfred take over?

Yes, Manfred takes over.

OTL Manfred became leader of the Ghibellines and was duly excommunicated by the Pope who (after offering the crown to Richard of Cornwall at one point) eventually persuaded the French to invade and overthrow him.
ITTL the Interregnum is shorter and the Popes are reconciled with the new Emperors. OTOH, the Premsylids aren't likely to be too keen on a surviving Staufen (even a bastard one) controlling a rich kingdom on the Empire's border. So I can see Manfred being undermined as OTL.

As he was.

But who takes the Kingdom? If it's not the French, then the Guelph/Ghibelline wars will be reduced (which fits with the rest of the TL - I hadn't realised how active the French were in supporting the Guelphs).
Your map shows Naples and Sicily united, so no Sicilian Vespers. Sicily is much the most powerful state in Italy and whoever rules it (and it could be anyone) will be a big player in the Mediterranean.

Glad you caught that. You're right, there were no Sicilian Vespers ITTL. I figured the Pope still grants it to a Frenchman. Why? Well, why not?

How about this? In the 1260s, an Imperial army, with the blessing of the Pope, overthrows Manfred in Sicily. Apulia is granted to the Pope, and the rest of the kingdom is granted to a pro-Imperial baron, who rules it as an Imperial vassal. The new Sicilian ruling house marries into several other royal houses, including those of France and Aragon. Two or three generations later, the main line of the Sicilian dynasty dies out. The nearest heir is a French count, the cousin of the King of France. His claim is disputed by the Premsylid emperors, who claim the right of appointment to the vacant fief. The French counterclaim that since the new King of Sicily is a vassal of the French King, Sicily (like Provence & Burgundy) should now be regarded as a French rather than an Imperial vassal. The French candidate brings an army into Italy to enforce his claim; he is supported by Venice and the Florentines (who are looking to break free of Imperial overlordship) but opposed by the Pope. Fun commences.

That sounds like an idea! Will do.

Edit: Although, I thought Milan was Guelf and Florence was Ghibelline? So wouldn't a Milanese revolt be more likely?

Almost done with the update guys. After I get to 1466 I'll do a once-over to see what I can add...

[Thermopylae]

@Merrick

Duly added:

1277 AD - Manfred King of Sicily dies. The Pope allows Ottokar to invest the Kingdom of Sicily with whomever he so desires.

[Thermopylae]

Consider this Thermopylae's Christmas Gift to his readers.

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1366 AD - Sigemund II ascends the throne of England. Like his grandfather before him, he seeks to place England in a strong position, for like the first of the Ealdgars, Sigemund II saw England as being on the cusp of greatness, if only it could just prove itself as being capable. This nation needed a pick-me-up, and it needed one now.

He wouldn’t have to wait all that long. The Scottish monarch had lost near-complete grip on his Irish possessions, and because the Irish were beginning to raid Scottish ports on the Irish sea, the ports that England now controls, Sigemund II let the king of Scotland know exactly how that made him feel.

“Why don’t you buy them from me?” inquired the king of Scotland.

And that’s just what Sigemund did. Leinster and Dublin were sold to England, for a fair price too. And so at the end of the year Sigemund had, for the most part, inherited the Scots’ problem. But in it he saw the pick me up he had been waiting for.

1367 AD - Polish Pomerania is left without an heir to the Duchy, and as such it was now upon Wenceslaus II, Holy Roman Emperor to invest somebody with that particular Duchy. He had four options. He could give it to the Duchy of Pomerania, a rather inconsequential Duchy on the Baltic. He could give it to the Margrave of Brandenburg, and perhaps secure the Przemyslid line completely for the next few generations. He could give it to the Teutonic Order, as a means of pleasing that rather powerful monastic neighbor who has been since the rise of Wencesalus II looking on Gdansk with hungry eyes. He could invest the entire territory to the Bishop of Gdansk. Or he could claim it as Imperial land, personal property of the Holy Roman Empire.

This left Wenceslaus in a rather difficult position. He could basically throw out Pomerania. Giving it to the Duchy of Pomerania would serve only to anger the Teutonic Knights AND Brandenburg. He could give it to the Imperial crown, as a means of expanding the Emperor’s influence, although this ran the risk of angering the Church, and ultimately the Archbishoprics of Trier, Cologne, and Mainz. Granting the entire territory to the Bishop of Gdansk (thus making it the Bishopric of Gdansk) would likely have the opposite effect, although a bishopric in that particular region might prove to be more of a strategic liability than anything.

And so he found himself torn between Brandenburg and the Teutonic Order. Who ought it be? Secure the vote of Brandenburg (and because it was ruled by a Wittelsbach, more than likely that of the Palatinate as well), stifle the growing power of the Teutonic Order? Or secure the friendship of the Teutonic Order, but face serious internal dissent?

1368 AD - After debating about the issue with himself and his advisors for a whole year (and leaving the Territory in a sort of political limbo in the meanwhile) the Emperor decided to confer with the Pope, and see what his thoughts were on the matter.

The Holy Father was quite understanding of his situation. But ultimately Wenceslaus left the meeting with one impression: the Pope wanted it to become either a bishopric, or be given to the Teutonic Knights, in the interests of securing the Baltic shores for the Catholic Church.

And this is exactly what Wenceslaus was prepared to do, when on a hot July day, 1368, the Emperor was bribed.

The Wittelsbachs of Bavaria, Palatinate, and Brandenburg all made a sort of cabal, and pooled their resources together in a mixture of bribery and blackmail. The Emperor knew that Bavaria, the Palatinate, and Brandenburg combined was enough to give the Emperor quite the headache should they choose the path of princely revolt.

The Emperor had his back against the wall. He was not a young man at this point, and he was faced with possible revolt. And while the support of the Archbishoprics and Papacy is nice, it really amounts to little when you have the entire House of Wittelsbach threatening armed rebellion.

And so on August 1, 1368, Wenceslaus had finally come to a fateful decision: the Margrave of Brandenburg was to be invested with Farther Pomerania. How future Przemyslids would come to rue the day that their forebear arrived at this decision…

1369 AD - The Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights was in disbelief. A cabal of Bavarians had taken from the Order the chance at domination of the Baltic Coast. A chance to expand the power of the one true faith to the farthest shores of the cold Baltic, a chance to curb the power of the money-grubbing Hanseatic League.

Meanwhile, the various branches of Wittelsbachs were in celebration. They had muscled their way onto the Baltic, and for it gained the very, very wealthy port of Gdansk. These Przemyslids, they weren’t such bad guys after all, no?

The Pope likewise was furious. He had TOLD Wenceslaus to invest the Teutonic Grand Master with the Duchy! And here he thought these Przemyslids were different, that they were a change from the Staufens of years gone by. He supposed he was wrong. And the Archbishops of Mainz, Trier, and Cologne reacted in the exact same way.

The Pope did not excommunicate Wenceslaus, but he had made it known to him that he no longer enjoyed his support, nor the support of the Archbishops. For eight more years there would be relative peace. But with the death of Wenceslaus, things were about to get very, VERY ugly.

1367 - 1372 AD - The Irish Adventures. For a period of four years, Sigemund put down the rebellions largely by 1369. So he got himself out of a mess that he purchased. He still wasn’t looking too good to the Witanagemot. Claiming (correctly) that these rebellions were backed by the High King (also rulers of Connacht), Sigemund basically used this as an excuse to conquer the island in whole (sans Munster and Scottish Ulster).

And so from late 1369 -1371 Sigemund made war on the High King himself. And a bloody war it was. The campaign reached an climax with the Battle of Tara in 1370, where both King Sigemund and the High King of Ireland himself fought. During the height of the battle, after King Sigemund’s horse was slain in the thick of the fighting, King Sigemund took his horse’s blood, and on his breastplate made the sign of the cross. After this, he shouted “Ēadmund Æðeling!” (Saint Edmund!) This rallied the English troops, and the English carried the day. The High King of Ireland was slain.

While resting his forces in Dublin, Sigemund ordered that a crown be forged. On July 19th, 1370, he had himself crowned “King of Ireland” by the Archbishop of Dublin. The old, pagan “High Kingship” was now dead, and a proper, English king was put in its place.

By 1372 Connacht capitulated, and recognized Sigemund as their king. No more were their Crowns of Leinster, of Connacht, of Tara. Now there was but one, single, Irish crown. What better pick-me-up than the de facto conquest of Ireland? And the earls and thegns didn’t mind it either when they were granted shiny new earldoms in Ireland.

1373 AD - Sigemund II didn’t like England’s flag. He saw it as an old, pagan banner, that white dragon on the red field. And so it was this year that he made a new flag: a red Scandinavian cross on a white field, with the crown of St. Edmund in the top left corner. The flag is heralded as a new, Christian (and long overdue) flag of England.

1377 AD - The death of King Wenceslaus III. Ottokar III ascended the throne as King of Bohemia and Poland, Duke of Austria, Carnithia, Carniola, and Krakow. But something strange happened that year, something very strange indeed. Something that had not happened in a long time.

As was expected, the Count Palatinate, the King of Bohemia, and the Margrave of Brandenburg all elected Ottokar III as their Holy Roman Emperor. But Saxony and the three Archbishoprics supported someone else. Someone entirely different. This someone was none other than Rudolf III, son of Wenceslaus (Elector of Saxony). The majority vote had gone to the House of Saxe-Wittenburg, and this understandably angered Ottokar III. So much, in fact, that he refused to acknowledge Emperor Rudolf I, Holy Roman Emperor.

On the face of it, Rudolf I doesn’t seem to have much of a chance. But the situation in the east and within Bohemia itself will ensure that Rudolf I has a run at the Imperial crown. You see, Wenceslaus IV(III HRE) had two sons: Ottokar IV (III HRE) and Wenceslaus V. Wenceslaus V was younger, but had often demanded of his father the right to the Austrian duchies, while his older brother Ottokar IV would get Bohemia/Silesia, and Poland/Krakow. But Wenceslaus IV, like his ancestors, wanted to maintain the personal union that had existed for so long. So while his father gave him great influence throughout all of the Przemyslid realms, he refused to elevate him to Duke of Austria.

Understandably, Wenceslaus V was quite miffed. So when he heard of the troubles concerning the Imperial election, he raised an army to seize Austria for himself. But simultaneously, the Austrian nobility saw a way out of being ruled by the Przemyslids. They looked around and saw Frederick III, Landgrave of Thuringia and Margrave of Meissen. Frederick accepted, and because he found himself fighting Przemyslids, he decided to back Rudolf I.

1378 AD - Wenceslaus V of Bohemia is defeated by the forces of the Austrian nobility. Frederick III and Wenceslaus of Saxony (Rudolf’s father), meanwhile, are fighting Bohemia, with raids into both Silesia and Bohemia proper. Meanwhile the war on the Rhine against the Count Palatinate is slow-going (mostly fighting against Luxembourg, who backed Rudolf. Brandenburg is struggling against Pomerania in the north.

And Ottokar’s problems are about to get a lot bigger.

The Poles had from the war’s onset begun to feel the strain. Thousands of men were levied by the Emperor, and the Polish nobility had had enough. They rescinded Ottokar of the titles “Duke of Krakow” and “King of Poland”, and instead gave the crown to Siemowit III, Duke of Masovia.

Trouble is brewing in Italy. The Guelf factions in Italy, seeing this as their chance to finally break Imperial power in Italy, lead an armed rebellion against the Empire. This rebellion, headed largely by the lords of Milan (Galeazzo II and his brothers Matteo and Bernabo), is backed largely by the Pope.

Milan asks for the French king’s aid in the conflict, and he pounces on the opportunity, with backing from the Pope. The French king uses the pretext that the heir according to proximity of blood to the last Bohemian king of Sicily (descendant of a Bohemian noble installed by Ottokar I) is the French king’s cousin. Ottokar refused to acknowledge the French king’s cousin as King of Sicily, and thus France is added to the problem.

France finds much support in Italy, especially from Florence, Genoa, and Venice, who are looking to destroy the Holy Roman Empire’s hold on Italy.

1379 AD - A pivotal year in the conflict. The combined armies of Frederick III and Wenceslaus of Saxony succeed in defeating Ottokar IV himself at the Battle of Frýdlant. Once Rudolf I crosses over the Jizera Mountain Range, he had near free range over most of the Bohemian interior. Once Bohemia’s mountains had been breached, Frederick III was free to break off with Wenceslaus and fight his own battle with the Bavarians, who stood between him and the Austrian duchy.

Meanwhile, the armies of Siemowit II King of Poland were marching from the East to retake Silesia from Bohemia. Thanks to the defeat at Frýdlant, Silesia is more or less cut off from Bohemia’s armies, and Poland retakes it with barely a fight. Siemowit is then free to send his forces north to take Gdansk from Brandenburg.

Frederick III is quite successful in his attack on Bavaria’s northern borders. Bavaria is struggling to hold on to her southern possessions in the face of Austrian attack, and as such Frederick III practically marches over the border.

1380 AD - The Count Palatinate sues for peace, realizing that at this point that he stands to gain very little. This triggers a chain reaction, as Bavaria throws in the towel soon afterward. Only Brandenburg and Bohemia stand in the way of Rudolf’s claim to the throne.

This year, Wenceslaus of Saxony scores yet another major victory at Kralupy nad Vltavou, and Praha lies wide open to him. Ottokar IV, rather than flee, attempts to mount a defense of Praha, but he is assassinated by Bohemian noblemen who do not wish to lose their heads. Wenceslaus and his son Rudolf I, Holy Roman Emperor march triumphantly into Praha, and weeks later peace is secured with Poland and Brandenburg. Frederick III Wettin is formally invested with Austria.

1381 AD - Wenceslaus and his son Rudolf I, HRE, defeat Wenceslaus V Przemyslid, now the legitimate king of Bohemia, outside České Budějovice. Rudolf I Saxe-Wittenberg is now the Holy Roman Emperor. But he still has a lot of problems to deal with. For one, the Italian Rebellion was in full swing. He needed to stop it, and he needed to do it peacefully.

Meanwhile, Frederick III Wettin dies, shortly after his investment with Austria. He is succeeded by his son Frederick IV without any trouble.

1382 AD - Rudolf I Saxe-Wittenberg creates the Duchy of Milan, a large Duchy comprising much of northern Italy. He also grants the King of France the right to invest the Kingdom of Sicily in whomever he so chooses. To Venice, he grants the entire Veneto region. This pacifies the Italian rebels and the Pope enough so that the rebellion is largely ended with winter of 1382’s onset.

Over the course of five years the Empire has gone through the implosion, and a triumphant reconstruction and redefinition. The civil war of 1377-1382 is today seen by many as a turning point in the history of the Holy Roman Empire, as Rudolf I is the first German to sit on the Imperial throne in over one hundred years.

Meanwhile, there was the awful, awful Bohemian question. There remained no more male Przemyslids left for the throne. However, Wencesalus V left a daughter, who married a Habsburg (who ruled over Breisgau, Argau, and Thurgau), and Ottokar IV left a daughter, who married a Hohenzollern (Franconian branch, ruling over small possessions, most notably the Imperial Free City of Nuremburg). Both families stood to gain a lot from being invested with Bohemia.

Rudolf invested Bohemia in Frederick V Hohenzollern (incidentally, the two shared a common ancestor, Albert II Elector of Saxony). The reason he did so was mostly out of the fact that the Hohenzollerns had the strongest claim (married to the eldest daughter of Ottokar IV, who was older than Wenceslaus V).

1383 AD - Rudolf I still had to deal with Poland’s status in the Holy Roman Empire. There never was any formal declaration making it subject to the Holy Roman Emperor, and the Przemyslids normally ruled it as a separate kingdom (although there were a few cases where the Duchies adhered to Imperial law). And so Rudolf I began writing to King Siemowit III of Poland.

Siemowit’s intentions were made very clear in this discourse. He wanted no part in what he saw as a strictly German nation. And while Siemowit wasn’t against the possibility of the King of Poland being the Holy Roman Emperor or an elector, he did not want to pledge his allegiance to Rudolf I, and this to him was unacceptable. The only man the King of Poland ought swear fealty to is the Holy Father in Rome, not some German sitting in Frankfurt, or wherever he took up his residence.

And so just as soon as Poland was added to the Holy Roman Empire, it was very quietly, very officially, divorced, from the Holy Roman Empire. But after a hundred-year-plus stint in that particular political amalgamation, Poland, whether Siemowit liked it or not, was now bound to the Holy Roman Empire’s fate. But he can afford to put it out of his mind. It is not something he will have to deal with in his lifetime.

1373 - 1392 AD - The rest of the reign of King Sigemund II of England was marked by him, for the most part, resting on his laurels. He threw diplomatic support behind Rudolf I during the Przemyslid/Saxe-Wittenberg civil war, but that was about it. The internal mechanics of the English state were like clockwork during this time. Bar the shouting, England was now the master of the British Isles.

The greatest accomplishment of King Sigemund II is that during the last nineteen years of his life, he devoted his time largely to the codification of English law. Once the codification had largely been completed ( by about 1387). Over the centuries many arcane practices (such as the Thrall-system, Trial by Ordeal, etc ) had been repealed in England, but it was never officially codified into a single series of volumes.

When he died in 1392 he was succeeded by his eldest son, Harold.

1392 - 1414 AD - The reign of King Harold V. Like his father before him, he presided over a mostly peaceful kingdom. However, unlike his father, toward the end of his reign (~1410) he presided over an escalating conflict between the Hanseatic League’s merchants throughout England and her realms, and local merchants. Most notable was the conflict between Dutch merchants and those of the Hanseatic League.

There was a sort of chain reaction across all of England and the Dutch possessions. The friction caused by this often resulted in acts of mob violence, as merchants hired gangs of thugs to destroy shops, and cause mayhem. Both sides were guilty to varying degrees, although surviving historical records would suggest that most of the violence was against the Hansa, rather than against local merchants.

Harold V spent the final years of his reign attempting to placate both sides. But in the end he left for his son (Harold VI) a very tenuous situation.

Harold V died in 1414, and he was succeeded by his son Harold VI.

1409 AD - Death of Siemowit III. His son, Siemowit IV, who through marriage will also inherit the Hungarian throne.

1412 AD - Siemowit IV King of Poland inherits the Kingdom of Hungary.

1419 AD - Death of Rudolf I. He is succeeded by his son Albert I as both Elector of Saxony and as Holy Roman Emperor.

1423 AD - All semblance of civility between Anglo-Dutch and Hansa merchants had largely evaporated by the summer of 1423. The Hansa cities in Germany were threatening to declare war on England if nothing was done to protect their trading rights. The Hanseatic League had a lot to lose if they lost their trading privileges in the Netherlands and England. Lundenwic was a kontore in the Hanseatic League, and Amsterdam had become a key city for the wealthy grain trade.

Harold VI had to be decisive. His father was indecisive, and now his own son was paying the price. In the end, Harold VI decided to revoke the Hansa’s trading rights. This caused a severe uproar throughout the Hanseatic League. And it wasn’t all that long before many Hanseatic cities declared war on England.

1423 - 1429 AD - What ensued was a rather sporadic naval war. The goal of the Hansa was not to destroy, or even invade England, so much that it was to disrupt England’s trade so much that England would have little choice but to grant the Hansa their trading rights once more.

This war was disastrous for the Hanseatic League. Not only were they not able to win a decisive victory over the English navy, but this war sparked off a shipbuilding fever in England, and many consider this war to be the first true test of the mighty English navy.

In 1429 the city of Lübeck surrendered, and with it the rest of the Hanseatic League’s resistance collapsed.

1428 AD - Death of Frederick IV Duke of Austria. He was succeeded by his son Frederick V as Duke of Austria, Carinthia, Carniola, Margrave of Meissen, and Landgrave of Thuringia.

1430 AD - The death of King Harold VI. He is succeeded by his son, Harold VII.

1430 - 1448 AD - The reign of King Harold VII. Harold VII enjoyed the kingdom that his father had left for him. Without the Hansa controlling large portions of the grain and textile industries, England’s wealth became staggering. King Harold VII is most noted for getting the Witenagemot to agree to move from Witenceaster to Lundenwic. Lundenwic had always been the more wealthy city, and the royals had long ago taken up residence there.

The most famous structure built during Harold VII’s reign is by far the Witanærn (“Witenagemot Building”), to house the Witan in Lundenwic. It was done in a largely continental style, as the architect hired to design it studied architecture at the University of Paris.

Harold VII died in 1448, and was succeeded by his son Sigemund III. For his patronage of architecture, Harold VII is remembered as “Harold Wyrhta.” (Harold the Builder)

1440 AD - Death of Albert I, Holy Roman Emperor. He is succeeded by his son, Albert II.

1445 AD - The last Wittelsbach margrave of Brandenburg. Albert I invests Brandenburg in the Luxembourg dynasty.

1448 - 1466 AD - The first part of the reign of King Sigemund III. Sigemund III continued his father’s patronage of construction, but also expanded the military (particularly the navy). The most notable part of this phase of Sigemund’s reign was the conquest of Munster in 1460. One of the Irish Earls claimed that he had the right of succession to Munster, and when the more prominent Munstercians failed to oblige, he appealed to his king to assist him in his claim. By 1462 All of Ireland was under the English crown except Ulster (ruled by Scotland, whose grip on Ulster was already beginning to deteriorate).

1453 AD - The Fall of Constantinople.

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I'm not quite satisfied with a few things.

1)Fall of Constantinople. My butterfly-o-meter is telling me that, while it is inevitable, it really shouldn't happen at the exact same time. The fall of Constantinople at that specific time really hinged on a few factors, so I'm not entirely sure what to do there.

2)Hungary. So now there's a Polish dynasty. What next? My guess is that something a little more interesting SHOULD happen, I just really don't have an idea.

3)Lithuania. No Union of Krewo. Will need to look into what might happen to both Poland, and Lithuania

I eagerly await you responses! And I should have a map in time for Christmas!

[Thermopylae]

Revised flag...

Make one comment about the cross of St.George...

The colors came from the white dragon on red field flag England previously had. I could invert it, but then it looks like the Dannebrog + Crown.

[Constantinople]

Has history in the east gone pretty much the same then?

[Thermopylae]

Originally Posted by Constantinople

Has history in the east gone pretty much the same then?

Yeah, more or less. Can't see a real reaosn why it wouldn't...

[Thermopylae]

:bump:

Absolutely nothing, hmm?

I figured. It is the holidays, and a whole lot of people are out of town, etc, etc.

[Communist Wizard]

I don't celebrate Christmas... so, nice TL! I applaud you...

[DuQuense]

I think you have to rethink the whole East Europe and Balkans
1300's Shows a hodge Podge, of little Principalities across Anatolia and the Balkans, http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm
1400's shows it all unified under the Ottomans. http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm

Given that Hungrary and Poland spent a lot of time Fighting the Ottomans during the 1300's, I don't see all these battles going the same way.

If the HRE controls Venice in the early 1300's, this could give them a Claim to Constantinople, And the Ottomans leave it alone.

[Thermopylae]

Originally Posted by DuQuense

I think you have to rethink the whole East Europe and Balkans
1300's Shows a hodge Podge, of little Principalities across Anatolia and the Balkans, http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1300.htm
1400's shows it all unified under the Ottomans. http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm

Given that Hungrary and Poland spent a lot of time Fighting the Ottomans during the 1300's, I don't see all these battles going the same way.

If the HRE controls Venice in the early 1300's, this could give them a Claim to Constantinople, And the Ottomans leave it alone.

Yeah I was thinking that. But I need to brainstorm a little more, I need to familiarize myself with the important battles of the Ottomans' initial push into Europe, and what battles the Hungarians lost in said battles.

Besides that, is there anything else you see that might need tweaking?

[DAv]

Really interesting update. Has the Italian art thingy (I can't spell the real word) been butterflied away or is there some sort of sembalance of it somewhere?

[Thermopylae]

Renaissance? Yes, it has most certainly started, not all that different than IOTL. Thank you!

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Thermopylae

Revised flag...

Make one comment about the cross of St.George...

The colors came from the white dragon on red field flag England previously had. I could invert it, but then it looks like the Dannebrog + Crown.

Phew, rock and a hard place there Thermo. I see what you mean...

[Thermopylae]

@Thande

Gah! He's here!

Did you like the update?

And yeah, I'm generally stuck when it comes to the flag. Make it look like (OTL) England's flag, or Denmark's flag? But I figured a dragon flag would start looking a bit odd to the clergy by this time...

General Announcement:

Update should be on Saturday, but it may be later (lost some time because of the holidays, but hell it's only once a year.)

[Thermopylae]

*Bump*

Hey! Sorry guys, no update, but barring any unforseen delays, you should have it out tommorow. I'm in the last forty years...

[Thermopylae]

One last time, for ol' 2006. It's a little rushed toward the end, I will be busy the rest of the night. I do hope you enjoy, and remember that both criticism and praise are quite welcome here.

The update's a bit shorter, my shortest yet (got about 4 and a half pages out of it), but I am rather pleased with it, from a plausibilty standpoint. It bears a resemblance to OTL but I think it to be sufficiently different. I would like to know your opinion...

Enjoy.

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1467 AD - Death of Sigemund III. He is succeeded by Sigemund IV.

1467 - 1488 AD - The reign of Sigemund IV King of England and Ireland. Again, England was a prosperous nation at this time. With the Hansa merchants largely expelled (they were still allowed restricted trade in various minor ports), England had once again taken its place as one of the wealthiest nations in all of Europe.

Sigemund IV would play an important role in English history, for he is largely remembered for establishing in Cornwall a School of Navigation, similar to those found in Portugal, Castile, and Aragon. He understood that England, because of its long maritime tradition, was in a position to take control of trade with the Orient, since the usual routes were effectively severed.

Of course, he had one hell of a time trying to convince the Witenagemot the same thing. Why ruin a good thing? England has grown wealthy off supplying the Baltic and Rhineland areas with textiles and grain for centuries! And rather than furthering these, Sigemund proposes to throw precious money into exploring routes around Africa! Or even out west!

Well, Sigemund IV WAS king, and as such he did have the final say. So long as he didn’t start imposing more taxes to fund these projects, it was no skin off their noses. Sigemund understood this very well, and because of this he never got all that far with his dream of discovering an alternate route to the East. His son, however, was quite the mariner, and he is the king who would make all the difference.

During Sigemund IV’s reign English ships went further afield than under any king previous. English ships went as far as the Gold Coast, and the Azores (much to the chagrin of the King of Portugal), and there is clear documentation that ships arrived in Iceland, with the intent of sailing to Greenland colonies, were it not for the storms at the time, and later the threats of the Danish king to attack all English ships within the view of the Icelandic shore.

Sigemund IV died in 1488, and he would be succeeded by his son, Harold VIII.

1471 AD - Death of Albert II Holy Roman Emperor. He is succeeded by Albert III.

1478 AD - The Fall of Constantinople to the Germiyanid Empire.

1480 AD - The destruction of the Kingdom of Granada.

1482 AD - The beginning of troubles in Hungary. The last Polish king of Hungary was ousted. He was incompetent, and it was a miracle he wasn’t ousted in Poland as well. He was seen by the nobles as weak, having struck many deals with the Turk to ensure the safety of his Hungarian realms, and this greatly angered many Hungarian nobles, particularly those on the Turkish border, and those with ties (familial and political) to the Bulgarian and Serbian courts. On top of it, the Polish king had exacted large taxes and tolls from the Hungarians to fund the costly wars against the Lithuanians. While these wars were largely successful (the king of Lithuania converted to Christianity in 1464) they were costly. Rather than extract taxes from the court closest to home (in Poland), he decided to exact it from the faraway Hungarians.

Sounded like a plan. But the Hungarian nobility had a tendency to raise hell when they were overly taxed.

The ousting of the Polish king could only strengthen Hungary, if only the nobility could agree on whom should be crowned king. There were at least two different noblemen rallying support who wanted to, like the king previous, strike deals with the Turk (one had suggested the selling of Dalmatia, which was constantly being attacked by Venetian pirates anyhow). There was another man by the name of István of Transylvania who had taken on a very militant view about dealing with the Turks, going so far as proclaiming a Hungarian Crusade to take Constantinople. He was quite popular in Transylvania.

The rest had appealed to the Holy Roman Emperor Albert III (also Count of Tyrol) to aid them. Albert III felt it his duty to flex his might a little bit, and gladly accepted the Kingship of Hungary. Albert III took his imperial army and knocked a couple of heads around, and largely cemented himself within the Kingdom of Hungary. More or less, Hungary was safe, at least for now. The Saxe-Wittenberg dynasty of rulers were far from ideal, but with the Holy Roman Empire at their side, the Hungarian nobles could (sort of) breath easy in the knowledge that, at least for a while, they were safe.

1488 - 1506 AD - Reign of Harold VIII. He continued his father’s work, and like his father was quite hampered by the Witenagemot’s unwillingness to divert precious resources to what they considered a wild goose chase. It wasn’t until the arrival of one Nicolo Venier, a wealthy Venetian merchant-cum-captain who had lost just about everything with the fall of Constantinople, arrived at the Cornwall School of Navigation in 1490, offering his services. One might think it odd that a merchant would dedicate himself to what was essentially a teaching job, but Nicolo Venier knew that this would be but a stepping stone to greater things.

He was a welcome addition to the school, and his lessons caught Harold VIII’s eye (or rather, ear) as he was doing one of his occasional tours of the school. In particular, Harold VIII overheard Nicolo speaking to his students of the land known only as Bacalao, claiming that he was brought to that land by Navarrese fishermen. Harold VIII discussed in great length the exact location of this land, and when both had come to the conclusion that Bacalao was the easternmost island of Cathay or India, Harold VIII was willing to privately fund an expedition.

And so in 1498 England, with a Venetian merchant/captain/fisherman/teacher at the helm, made a journey for what was (unbeknownst to them) a New World.

Of course, they weren’t the first. In an effort to pioneer their own route to Asia, one that does not require a rounding of Africa, Castile had in 1495 sent out their own expedition to find Asia over the Atlantic, and had stumbled upon a large island which they called “Hispaniola”. The Kingdom of Aragon was also quite interested in the New World, and would send their own expedition later, in 1502. (they would find themselves in the Caribbean as well) Portugal wound up finding Brazil in 1503 by setting off from one of their African “colonies”.

On the dawn of July 29th, 1498, Nicolo Venier woke up to the shouts of “Land! Land!”. Nicolo Venier quickly confirmed that this was Bacalao (Fiscland, as his English crew referred to it. [OTL Newfoundland]). Within a few hours the men were on the land, and basking on the beach. They met natives, and the contact was actually quite friendly. Words were exchanged (as best as they could manage), and as were gifts. A few members of the Beothuk agreed to return with the English to meet the white men’s chief.

Nicolo Venier continued to sail around what is now known today as The Gulf of St. Mark (OTL Gulf of St. Lawrence). Nicolo had at the time christened it “Il Mare di San Marco” after the patron saint of Venice, Saint Mark. He had mistakenly believed that it was a large expanse of ocean lying between Bacalao and Cathay, hence “Il Mare”.

Nicolo Venier returned to England triumphantly in November of 1498, and the natives which were brought back were greeted warmly in Lundenwic by King Harold VIII. Both Harold and Nicolo received great accolades from all four Chambers of the Witenagemot (the Préosthád, the Æðelu, the þegnrǽden, and the Líesingas). King Harold VIII proclaimed Nicolo Venier the “Earl of Fiscland,” and now the Witan was throwing its support behind Harold VIII and what was once called his “mad ambition”. For the first time in human history, one could link the lucrative Baltic/North Sea trade with the silk/spice trade of Cathay and India.

Or at least, that’s what was thought. When Nicolo went back in 1500, he came to the conclusion that he had not, as he thought, reached an outlying island of Cathay. He began to discover that the Sea of St. Mark was actually a large Bay, and that Cathay lay further to the west. And so he sailed further south, trying to find a way to reach Cathay by going around the landmass. But after sailing for a week it became quite clear to him that this was a far larger land than previously thought.

He believed to the end (which came in 1508) that if only you were to sail around it, you would reach Cathay proper. But as more and more lands were discovered by Portuguese, Castilians, and Aragonese navigators it became clear to all that this was indeed a New World.

Harold VIII died in 1506, and he would be succeeded by his son Albert IV.

1506 - 1530 AD - Reign of Albert IV. Albert IV largely continued his father’s work of exploring the New World. He did, however, preside over the division of the New World between Castile, Portugal, Aragon, and England with the signing of the Treaty of Burgos in 1515. It effectively granted Portugal all lands to the east of one line, and left the rest to Castile, Aragon, and England. The king of Castile was, understandably, a bit miffed at this, but remained quiet enough. The Pope told the rest that any internal divisions west of the Line of Demarcation would have to be worked out between Aragon, Castile, and England themselves.

For now, England’s interests were much farther north than those of Castile and Aragon, and so there was no foreseeable conflict with the Iberian powers. At least for now. It would take Albert IV’s son, Edward V, to shake things up.

In 1530 Albert IV died. He was succeeded by his son Edward V.

1493 AD - Death of Albert III Holy Roman Emperor. His son Rudolf II succeeded him.

1512 AD - The aging Rudolf II, Holy Roman Emperor, while liked well enough in his German territories was not the picture of an effective ruler in Hungary. Indeed, Transylvania had for many years now been an independent principality, viciously fighting the Germiyanid Sultans in Romania. Dalmatia was all but lost, a small rump territory having been handed over to the Austrian Wettins a few years back. The rest was given to the Hohenzollern rulers of Bohemia, and Rudolf II was able to keep the crown of St. Stephen.

The Turkish Sultan Yakub III understood the precarious situation that Hungary was in. And understanding it, he took the opportunity to attack.

1512 - 1520 AD - The conquest of most of Hungary by Yakub III. The largely disunited Hungarian magnates got little help from either Transylavania or Rudolf II, and with the fall of Székesfehérvár, the Germiyanid conquest of Hungary was largely complete. Not wanting to drag in the for the moment passive Holy Roman Empire, Yakub III was content with allowing the Hohenzollerns and Wettins to keep their pieces of the pie.

The year 1520 not only marks the death of the Kingdom of Hungary, but also, ironically enough, the deaths of both Rudolf II Holy Roman Emperor and Sultan Yakub III of the Germiyanid Empire. Rudolf II was succeeded by his grandson, Rudolf III of the House of Nassau-Weilburg. The House of Nassau-Weilberg was seen by the electors as both very neutral (i.e. not in control of an electoral vote) and Rudolf was even descended from the previous Emperor.

1526 AD - The date that most historians regard as the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. A German monk by the name of Friedrich Schleisinger stood on the steps of the St. Catherine’s Church immediately after Sunday’s mass and gave an electrifying sermon that challenged the Pope’s authority, and the sale of indulgences.

It was only within the Holy Roman Empire itself that the Protestant Reformation could begin. A collection of strong princes with views that tended to differ from those of the powers-that-be, ruled by an ineffective Emperor, far from Rome itself.

Few outside of Hamburg took Friedrich seriously at first, but his message, aided by the relatively-new printing press, spread like wildfire throughout most of Germany. Friedrich, contrary to what many of his contemporary detractors thought, did not advocate the separation of his followers from the Church. Rather, he wished for reform of the Church. He had felt that the Pope was no longer the “first among equals”, but rather a despot, a sort of Emperor of Emperors that had come to rule over all of Europe.

Friedrich’s heresy was not without precedent. There had been others within the Holy Roman Empire in the last hundred years or so, whom had adopted views very similar to his own. They all wound up being burned at the stake or strung up by their guts or something just as gruesome. What made Friedrich’s heresy dangerous was the timing.

The Turk was pushing into Europe, the Holy Roman Empire was basically a network of shifting alliances rather than a proper religious temporal state, the old ways of feudalism were in decline and Europe had in the previous centuries gone through the one-two punch of the Mongol invasions and the Black Death.

Yes, the timing was perfect. By 1540 many German princes had aligned themselves with Friedrich (mainly in Northern Germany). The only German territories that remained aligned with Rome were Austria, Bavaria, Bohemia, and the Archbishoprics (along with Nassau, territory of the Emperor). When a few malcontents started leaving the Church, all you needed was an armed mob and an inquisitor. When entire states began leaving the Church, you needed a hell of a lot more.

And so from 1541 - 1543 thousands were slaughtered, as armed mobs from both ends of the religious spectrum marched about Germany, purging their own respective domains. Rudolf III had had enough of it. He wished only to have his empire united. After all, the Turk was knocking on the gates of Vienna (Sultan Suleyman II was threatening war at the time over meager border disputes). Thus, in 1543, he called an Imperial Diet at Nuremburg to resolve the issues, for the time being.

Many resolutions were passed at the Diet of Nuremburg, the most important being that the Empire would be run on the principle of “cuius regio, eius religio” (whose reign, his religion). For now, that was enough to end the bloodshed, but a lot of issues went unresolved: issues which the successors to Rudolf III would end up having to deal with.

1558 AD - Death of Rudolf III. Succeeded by Philip I.

1530 - 1553 AD - The reign of King Edward V of England. King Edward V’s reign saw the establishment of trading posts in the Caribbean, something which flew in the face of the Treaty of Burgos, which Edward’s father had, along with the Kings of Portugal, Castile, and Aragon, plus the Pope, had ratified. While the confrontations which resulted did not result in war, it did begin a colonial rivalry which would result in many wars and almost-wars throughout the coming centuries.

Why bother to be confrontational with Castile? For the sheer reason that control of the Caribbean would prove VERY lucrative. Gold, silver, tobacco, sugar, all very abundant in the Americas. And with the Castilian conquest of the Aztec and Incan Empires in the 1530s and 1540s, not only had Aragon essentially lost her chance to become dominant on the Iberian peninsula, but privateering became very, very popular among the English colonial governors (and with Edward V himself).

Edward V, of course, was not entirely free to pursue his colonial ambitions. Edward V was a devout Catholic, and was personally appalled as he witnessed his courts in the Low Countries convert to the various Protestant faiths which had sprung up. He attempted to forcefully put down these heretics, but by around 1550, when he had come to realize that he was having no more effect than stirring the pot, he decided that it would pay off to be more pragmatic when dealing with the Protestants.

Indeed, the only law he enacted was the “Act of Colonial Charters”, which prohibited persons of the Protestant faith from living in English colonies in the New World, and also prohibited the establishment of Protestant Churches in said colonies.

For the moment, this law was actually quite enforceable. The Reformation foundered when it arrived in England, and the Dutch reformers really weren’t all that concerned with the New World, given that they had plenty to deal with in the Old World.

Edward V died in 1558, leaving a small colonial empire to his son, Edward VI.

1566 AD - With the death of the dynasty ruling Aragon, the Kingdom of Aragon effectively fell into the French sphere when the king of Sicily (a Frenchman whose ancestral home was in Toulouse) inherited the Kingdom of Aragon. This tipped the balance of power in western Europe. The French had arrived on the Iberian peninsula, and they would make waves while they were there.

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I'll have a map out for you gents tommorow. I am in the process of finding one that will sufficiently cover both Europe and the Caribbean...

[Jammy]

Good to see another up date, these kings sound like the portuguese ones Henry the Navigator etc which is what you were probs trying to do anyway and now i sound stupid lol

but good update love this TL

[G.Bone]

So ITTL, England rules Ireland/Scotland/Wales/the Low Countries and Aragon? If not, then how come Aragon & Castile were given equal shares of the New World? I understand Portugal... or were the two countries simply included due to their long naval tradition?