The Directorate: Draft Thread

[Justin Pickard]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

But the security of the Republic requires France to be surrounded by other Republican states; and why would France refuse to share the flame of liberty with the rest of the world?

Well, obviously there is going to have to be something in the way of compromise, especially if security is going to be achieved. I mean, the Helvetic Republic will probably still come about, but I think that France might just try to force Sardinia and Naples to surrender, and then march on Vienna. They don't necessarily need a lasting peace, just some time to consolidate.

Originally Posted by 1793 Constitution

ON THE RELATIONS OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC WITH FOREIGN NATIONS

The French people are the friends and natural allies of free peoples.

They do not interfere in the government of other nations; nor do they permit other nations to interfere in theirs.

They give asylum to foreigners who, in the name of liberty, are banished from their homelands, and refuse it to tyrants.

They do not make peace with an enemy who is occupying their territory.

[Justin Pickard]

September 1796: After a couple of minor successes in North Italy, the French forces of Massena and Augereau are relatively successful in driving back the troops of Victor Amadeus III, King of Sardinia.

October 1796: With the death of King Victor Amadeus III, Sardinia is plunged into chaos. His eldest son, Charles Emmanuel IV, is forced to the negotiating table by the growing threat of native Jacobinism. With the signature of the Treaty of Torino, Charles reneges on his alliance with Austria, leaving the First Coalition to concentrate his attention on domestic problems.

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My Questions:

- Is this plausible?
- Do you think that Massena and Augereau would have been happy to tender a Franco-Sardian peace? Or would they not have been happy until Sardinia was replaced with a French 'sister republic'?
- I'm kind of tempted to have Sardinian Jacobins overthrow King Charles Emmanuel following the faliure of his attempts to consolidate control. That said, I'm not sure whether a Sardinian Republic would necessarily be 100% pro-French, especially if they viewed France's actions as 'abandoning' them.

[Nicksplace27]

I'm not sure about the stability of the political atmosphere here. There would be too much infighting between the moderates and the jacobins and they could not effectivly rule the country. I think a british sytem is imposed with an earlier line (Megrovian or Capetian) to take thep lace as monarch. It works, and if the french only understand that in european countries they look for 1 individual to lead whether it be Cromwell, Napoleon or even a president, people need a central leader which the current french rep government doesnt have.

[Douglas]

Er...a Merovingian might be a little hard to find, over a thousand years after their displacement from the throne.

[Justin Pickard]

Originally Posted by Nicksplace27

I'm not sure about the stability of the political atmosphere here. There would be too much infighting between the moderates and the jacobins and they could not effectivly rule the country.

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

December 1795: The outcome of the inaugural elections to the French Directorate clearly reflect the sentiments of the country, returning a narrow majority of moderates, constitutionalists, and those on the right; a few royalists; and a mass of squabbling revolutionaries and leftists.

At the moment, the Jacobins in France are not only in a minority, but are too preoccupied by their own ideological divisions to mount an effective resistance. So long as the royalists are willing to cooperate, the moderates and constitutionalists will remain firmly in control...

(Providing you ignore uppity regions and maverick generals, of course)

Well, they'll remain in government until the next election, providing they don't make any major mistakes.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

Well, obviously there is going to have to be something in the way of compromise, especially if security is going to be achieved. I mean, the Helvetic Republic will probably still come about, but I think that France might just try to force Sardinia and Naples to surrender, and then march on Vienna. They don't necessarily need a lasting peace, just some time to consolidate.

The Rhineland, however, was always viewed as rightfully belonging to the French sphere of influence, if not under direct French control. Similarly, Italy was a target for French aggrandizement since the 15th century.

[Justin Pickard]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

The Rhineland, however, was always viewed as rightfully belonging to the French sphere of influence, if not under direct French control. Similarly, Italy was a target for French aggrandizement since the 15th century.

I can see the Rhineland still being annexed, or perhaps set up as a 'sister republic' by some enterprising General, but I think that the Directorate of TTL would be anxious to force an Austrian peace as quickly as possible, without getting bogged down with political meddling in Switzerland / North Italy.

What do you think?

[Nicksplace27]

Originally Posted by FENK

Er...a Merovingian might be a little hard to find, over a thousand years after their displacement from the throne.

Not if you believe the Da Vinci Code...

[fhaessig]

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

I can see the Rhineland still being annexed, or perhaps set up as a 'sister republic' by some enterprising General, but I think that the Directorate of TTL would be anxious to force an Austrian peace as quickly as possible, without getting bogged down with political meddling in Switzerland / North Italy.

What do you think?

WRT to RHineland, one solution does not preclude the other. I can see the left bank of the Rhine being annexed and the remainder of the Rhineland ( which is the main part, historically speaking ) set up as a republic, under the protection of France.

Switzerland : Leman is annexed, the rest is a republic.

Italy, that's an open point; OTL, it was only Napoleon who tried to get it all, because of his conquests there, but in AMiens treaty, french troops were to evacuate Italy ( Savoy being annexed is a given ). The french will try for a republic, but they won't push for it too much. I easily see an unalined constitutional monarchy being set up as buffer between France and Hapsburg lands. The question is going to be who is the king?

( who said Sergent Belles-Jambes????? )

[Justin Pickard]

Originally Posted by fhaessig

WRT to RHineland, one solution does not preclude the other. I can see the left bank of the Rhine being annexed and the remainder of the Rhineland ( which is the main part, historically speaking ) set up as a republic, under the protection of France.

Well, I was only talking about the left bank at the moment.

Originally Posted by fhaessig

The french will try for a republic, but they won't push for it too much. I easily see an unalined constitutional monarchy being set up as buffer between France and Hapsburg lands.

Regardless of what the French government wants, I'm going to have Piedmont fall to a *domestic* Jacobin uprising, forcing the flight of Charles Emmanuel IV to Sardinia.

Originally Posted by fhaessig

The question is going to be who is the king?

( who said Sergent Belles-Jambes????? )

Nah, Murat's dead.

October 5, 1795: The conservatives and moderates amongst the French people were far from impressed by this display of political opportunism by the deputies, and - with covert support from the British - mounted a rebellion against the Convention. Without the actions of Bonaparte, this constitutionalist-royalist onslaught leaves the republican defenders decimated, with fatalities including Guillaume Brune, Paul Barras and Joachim Murat.

[fhaessig]

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

Well, I was only talking about the left bank at the moment.

Then my opinion was that it will eventually be formally annexed to France just like OTL. I don't see the butterflies changing that. OTL, the left bank of the Rhine was under french occupation from 1795 on, and turned into french departements ( Sarre, Rhin-et-Moselle, Mont-Tonnerre and Roer ) by OTL directoire in 1798.

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

Regardless of what the French government wants, I'm going to have Piedmont fall to a *domestic* Jacobin uprising, forcing the flight of Charles Emmanuel IV to Sardinia.

Before or after a formal peace with France?

The directorate can always renonce a general who tried to get his hands in diplomacy.

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

Nah, Murat's dead.

With that smiley I'm not sure, but, in case you didn't get my reference, Sergent Belle-Jambe is Bernadotte.

[Justin Pickard]

Originally Posted by fhaessig

Before or after a formal peace with France?

Roughly simultaneously. Charles Emmanuel IV makes peace in order to concentrate his forces on supressing the uprising.

With that smiley I'm not sure, but, in case you didn't get my reference, Sergent Belle-Jambe is Bernadotte.

Beautiful Leg? Hmm, okay. Murat was apparently known as l'Abbe a la Belle Jambe. Hence the confusion.

Bernadotte headed North though, with the forces of Jourdan and Moreau, as you would have known had you read the timeline before commenting.

[fhaessig]

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

Bernadotte headed North though, with the forces of Jourdan and Moreau, as you would have known had you read the timeline before commenting.

I read it. Do you think that would stop his ambitions in any way? I can see him trying to get well with the revolutionary forces ( maybe as a negociator for the treaty, sent specially because he is not linked to the local command structure ). OTOH, he had a reputation as a neo-jacobin at that time. It may stand him well in Italy, but not in Paris.

I'm not saying this will happen, nor that it is even likely in your TL. Just that it is possible.

In fact, my original reference to him was a remainder on how some revolutionary generals were very opportunistic. Bernadotte was supposed to have a tatoo 'Death to Kings', which is quite funny when you consider what he ended being.

[Justin Pickard]

Originally Posted by fhaessig

In fact, my original reference to him was a remainder on how some revolutionary generals were very opportunistic. Bernadotte was supposed to have a tatoo 'Death to Kings', which is quite funny when you consider what he ended being.

Wow.

But, even so, I don't think it's particularly likely in TTL. In OTL, he ended up in Italy having bought reinforcements from the Rhine to Bonaparte's army. Here, not only are reinforcements probably not needed, but the armies marching on Austria are being given precedence by the Directorate.

So, I think that the French will probably leave Sardinia-Piedmont to implode on its own terms.

Interestingly, a Piedmontese Directorate could, of course, be cast by the Austrians as the Italian nexus of a Jacobin-oriented domino theory. Fearful of the further spread of liberty, Austria intervenes to supress further uprisings in its Italian backyard, and - as such - is caught unawares by the French forces of Jourdan and Bernadotte in the North. Perfect.

And, as I've already mentioned, there's no reason why the Piedmontese Directorate would necessarily be entirely pro-French in TTL. The French might even be cast as betraying the revolutionaries by making peace with the King.

EDIT: Either way, I've just found an article that should prove useful in helping me figure out what's going to happen in Piedmont.

[fhaessig]

Originally Posted by Justin Pickard

And, as I've already mentioned, there's no reason why the Piedmontese Directorate would necessarily be entirely pro-French in TTL. The French might even be cast as betraying the revolutionaries by making peace with the King.
.

QUite possible. But not being entirely pro-french is not the same as being anti-french. Especially if they also share a border with the Hapsburg, or with lands 'protected' by hapsburg troops.

In fact, in this situation, I can quite see the piemontese directorate trying very hard to be neutral and maintain a defensive alliance with both powers so that, if one invade, the other will help. All the while, building fortification like mad.

The other thing I can quite see is the piemontese directorate trying to go for unification of Italy by itself. Especially if the Austrians are distracted/reduced somewhere in the North. I could really see an opportunistic attack to get at least the North of Italy as 'pannonian Republic', even if they don't want to attack papal lands ( yet ). That could become interesting.

Please continue this TL; I look forward to what you will come up with.

[Justin Pickard]

Originally Posted by fhaessig

QUite possible. But not being entirely pro-french is not the same as being anti-french. Especially if they also share a border with the Hapsburg, or with lands 'protected' by hapsburg troops.

In fact, in this situation, I can quite see the piemontese directorate trying very hard to be neutral and maintain a defensive alliance with both powers so that, if one invade, the other will help. All the while, building fortification like mad.

A good point. From the readings I've been doing (Broers, M. 'Revolution As Vendetta: Patriotism in Piedmont, 1794-1821' from The Historical Journal, Vol 33, No 3, 1990), it would seem as though Piedmont is in for a fairly lengthy civil war between Royalists and Jacobins in TTL. The Austrians might start to intervene on the side of the King, but will be interrupted by a series of French attacks through the winter of 1796-7.

Originally Posted by fhaessig

The other thing I can quite see is the piemontese directorate trying to go for unification of Italy by itself. Especially if the Austrians are distracted/reduced somewhere in the North. I could really see an opportunistic attack to get at least the North of Italy as 'pannonian Republic', even if they don't want to attack papal lands ( yet ).

That's an interesting thought. Although maybe not through direct attack and conquest. They might try what the French did in OTL, and ferment dissent in the other Italian states, setting up 'sister republics'.

[Justin Pickard]

September 1796: After a couple of minor successes on the French-Sardinian border, Massena and Augereau successfully manage to force back the Sardinian armies, fighting their way into Piedmont proper.

October 1796: With the death of King Victor Amadeus III, Sardinia-Piedmont is plunged into chaos. His eldest son, Charles Emmanuel IV, is forced to the negotiating table by the growing threat of native Jacobinism in Piedmont. With the signature of the Treaty of Torino, Sardinia reneges on its alliance with Austria, ceding its territories in Savoy and Nice to the French Directorate. Despite the Treaty, stability is short-lived as, following a Jacobin uprising in the provincial town of Asti, Charles Emmanuel IV orders his forces to fire on the rebels; a needlessly heavy-handed move that alienates many of his supporters, and drives many into the arms of the dissenters. Indeed, within a matter of days, rebel forces in Asti have doubled in size, and what was originally a purely Jacobin movement appears to have rapidly achieved widespread support.

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Is this plausible?

Interestingly, without the French troops manouvering their way through the Alps, some (if not all) of the Swiss might revolt on their own in 1797-9, forming another state likely to align with the Piedmontese.

[Justin Pickard]

Here's a little more of my draft of the Italian-Austrian stuff:

May 1796: After weeks of debate, the Directorate agrees to launch a two-pronged offensive against its enemies in Austria and Italy. Forces led by Jourdan, Bernadotte, and Moreau cross the Rhine, whilst Massena and Augereau lead their troops south, intending to focus their energies on the Italian threat.

September 1796: After a couple of minor successes on the French-Sardinian border, Massena and Augereau successfully manage to force back the Sardinian armies, fighting their way into Piedmont proper.

October 1796: With the death of King Victor Amadeus III, Sardinia-Piedmont is plunged into chaos. His eldest son, Charles Emmanuel IV, is forced to the negotiating table by the growing threat of native Jacobinism in Piedmont. With the signature of the Treaty of Torino, Sardinia reneges on its alliance with Austria, ceding the western half of Savoy to the French Directorate. Despite the Treaty, stability is short-lived as, following a Jacobin uprising in the provincial town of Asti, Charles Emmanuel IV orders his forces to fire on the rebels; a needlessly heavy-handed move that alienates many of his supporters, and drives many into the arms of the dissenters. Indeed, within a matter of days, rebel forces in Asti have doubled in size, and what was originally a purely Jacobin movement appears to have rapidly achieved widespread support.

December 1796: [French armies crossing the HRE, French armies advancing through Austrian Italy, Piedmontese Civil War drags on]

February 1797: The Piedmontese Civil War - Hoping to stem the spreading tide of republican sentiments, Francis II sends Austrian troops, under the command of his younger brother - Charles, Duke of Techen - to intervene on the side of the Sardinian royalists.

April 25, 1797: The Siege of Vienna - French troops encircle the Austrian capital, trapping Francis II and his advisors in the Imperial palace.

May 1797: An Austro-Sardinian attempt to retake rebel-controlled Turino for the royalists is unexpectedly cut short when Charles, Duke of Techen, hears of the French besiegement of Vienna. Within a matter of days, he has assembled the Austrian troops, and - intending to launch a counter-attack against the French - begins the slow march north.

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My Notes:

- In TTL Venice, Istria and Dalmatia stay independent. I'm thinking about possibly riffing off of these ideas and suggestions.
- Without Napoleon's Egyptian adventures, Muhammed Ali Pasha never gets near Egypt, the Mameluks remain in control, and the Ottoman Empire continues its gradual decline into inefficiency, weakness and corruption.
- The Swiss fight for reform, the Piedmontese emerge triumphant, and - with Austrian surrender - the Lombards might also emerge indepedent (perhaps under French control, perhaps not). Could we be looking at an Alpine-Piedmontese-Lombard 'buffer zone' - a political bloc that is both republican and liberal, but not automatically pro-French? Perhaps it ends up as the embryo of some kind of Alpine-Italian Confederation which ends up carrying the torch of the revolution, long after the French torch has burnt out?

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My Questions:

- What kind of siege scenario do you think would make most sense for Vienna? (A) an attempt to starve the Austrian government into surrender by cutting supply lines, (B) an attempt to raze the city to the ground in a barrage of grapeshot and cannon-fire, or (C) a symbolic wall of French forces psychologically eroding governmental resolve while sowing dissent amongst the Austrian people.
- Does the timescale I'm working on seem fairly plausible? Are things happening too quickly?
- Any other comments / ideas / suggestions?

[Justin Green]

I think it would be interesting if the French didnt just annex the left bank of the rhine but did set up a nominally independent german rhine republic. In fact I imagine the French could enforce some sort of customs and economic union over all of its sister republics (Batavia, Rhineland, Helvetia, Piedmont).

[Justin Pickard]

Originally Posted by Justin Green

I think it would be interesting if the French didnt just annex the left bank of the rhine but did set up a nominally independent german rhine republic. In fact I imagine the French could enforce some sort of customs and economic union over all of its sister republics (Batavia, Rhineland, Helvetia, Piedmont).

In TTL, Switzerland and Piedmont are going to have been left to their own devices by the French, who were far more concerned with beating back Austria than sowing the seeds of Francophile 'sister republics'. They're going to come into increasingly close alignment with each other over the coming decades, and focus their attention on spreading their own particular (more moderate and patriotic) 'light of liberty' southwards into the Italian peninsula.

But, yes, the Batavian Republic s still very much in alignment with Paris, and a Rhineland equivalent definitely isn't out of the question.