The Investiture Controversy

[Thermopylae]

For those of you who don't know, the Investiture Controversy arose when this guy refused to give up his right to appoint bishops to this guy.

Now, is there any way for the investiture controversy to be avoided? The first link goes so far as to suggest that the reason Germany had failed to develop a centralized government in the 14th and 15th centuries, and indeed failed to do so until 1870, is the direct result of the Emperor's authority having been severely damaged by the Investiture Controversy.

So what would have happened had the Investiture Controversy been avoided, or if it went the other way entirely? How would Christendom have been shaped? Because essentially, by keeping Secular Investiture, you are making the Holy Roman Emperor the most powerful man in all Christendom, and the unofficial leader of the Catholic church.

How would Europe have developed? How would Christendom have developed?

[Hapsburg]

Simple: the Pope(s) don't whine about it. If they stay content with the Papal States in Italy, and avoid bitching about the German Kings being allowed to appoint bishops, then the German Kings become very powerful, leading to a stronger german kingdom, even if there are several stem duchies. To ensure power, the Emperor could depose the dukes of the duchies one by one and replace them with his sons or close relatives, and have them work together under his leadership.
Thus, a very OTL anglican-esque church in Germany would form. Possibly breaking away from the Pope in the latter middle-ages. Then, it's just a matter of the bishops' loyalty to the King or to the Pope...

[arctic warrior]

Avoiding it? The German King/Emperor keeps his Dukes in line, i.e. no one elects to go along with foreign potentates like the Pope in conflicts with the German King.
Effects? As already mentioned: strong German King who places sons and other relatives as Dukes. Not in itself a remedy against uprising and rebellion, but better.
But Kings in other lands would also be stronger as everybody would gain the prerogative of appointing their own bishops etc.
That would lead to a weaker Papacy as every sovereign would have his own Patriarch - like in the East. Also wars would be more cruel, as it would be us against them and probably earlier concept of the national state.
The drawback would be lower tech level as there would be no universal church to act as memory of Europe, no one to pass ideas and inventions across borders and thus less restraint on the use of violence and warfare. The Pope would be a mediator, but a weaker one with only his own resources to draw upon, as nobody would like to waste money on something "international". So less ability for the Pope to influence local rulers.
On the good side? No crusades, as this would imply Imperial/Royal initiative. No inquisition and less warlike or aggressive church.
Overall - a more backwards Europe, more violent society (yes I know the Medieval times were violent, but I see church influence as a brake - not the best, and indeed not equal to the perception of today (but don't wiew yesterday in the light of today - common misconception)) and earlier concept of the national state.

[carlton_bach]

I'm not sure about the loss of cultural memory. The main transmission mechanisms of knowledge were not the same as those of power. Much of the library work was done by Benedictines, the first generation of reform orders, and later Franciscans and Dominicans (but at that time really already the emerging universities). The papal power structure largely depended on episcopal households, titular bishops, and the Cluniacs, Dominicans and monks of Quierzy. There is no reason why even in an environment without a papally dominated church there could not still be monastic schools in close contact and exchange. The spiritual power of the pope was largely unchallenged even before the secular authority was formulated, so a unity in doctrinal terms is not really threatened.

[Thermopylae]

Actually, I thinkt he Catholic church would be stronger, because if the Papacy is still recognized as the head f all Christendom, this time he has a very strong, centralized HRE behind him, with the emperor being the power behind the cathedra, so-to-speak.

Now, whether or not that amounts to the Crusades still happening is up for debate. But if the Crusades don't happen, then the spread of Eastern knowledge into Medieval Europe is slowed somewhat, so that probably means gun technology is set back some...

[Shawn Endresen]

"Roman Catholicism" ends soon, and probably messily. Jan Huss is a good one to use for this. The Church was going through one of its ugly periods when Gregory VII became Pope, with Bishops routinely keeping families and mistresses, forming dynasties, extorting money from anyone found to be posessing it, etc, etc. Gregory conducted the largest series of internal reforms in the entire history of the Church, defrocking and replacing literally half the clergy in Christendom. He denied the right of any temporal potentate to appoint clergy not as a secular power play but because he correctly percieved it as the source of at least half of the Church's (very bad in his day) corruption problem. If he is balked from setting the Church back on a more spiritual path, its own corruption will do it in soon - before the monies from New World colonies have landed in the lap of a staunch defender of the Church to promote Counter-Reformation. I wouldn't expect any vestige of supernational organization to survive; the monastaries will continue to correspond with each other, and that'll be about it.

Not sure what happens if the Papacy loses so much of its lustre and authority that no one is able to call a Crusade. Perhaps the King of France calls a secular one...

[Shadow Knight]

<shameless plug>
I know its been a bit since I've updated (sigh RL) but my TL (see sig) deals with a negotiated end to the investiture controversy.
</end shameless plug>

This time period has lots of good PoDs in it shame more people don't know about it.

[Hapsburg]

Hmmm. I wonder...could it lead to the Pope seeking a new person to invest with the Emperorship, say...the King of France?

[Thermopylae]

Originally Posted by Hapsburg

Hmmm. I wonder...could it lead to the Pope seeking a new person to invest with the Emperorship, say...the King of France?

Gah! Francowanker! Get him!

@Shadownight

I'll be sure to read it! The idea of a centralized German state well before OTL's date has always fascinated me...

[Shadow Knight]

Originally Posted by Thermopylae

@Shadownight

I'll be sure to read it! The idea of a centralized German state well before OTL's date has always fascinated me...

Well I hope you enjoy it. While a centralized German state is not its primary POD it is well on its way there though in the TL.