Celtic-speaking British Isles/Empire

[Melvin Loh]

Aside from there somehow being no Anglo-Saxon invasion and settlement of Britain during the 5th C, how else could Britain have remained a Celtic-speaking country such that even the future British Empire would be speaking in a Celtic tongue today instead of English ? (got the idea for this thread from recalling a documentary I saw earlier in the yr about the Celts, narrated by Lucy Lawless, the star of XENA)

[MerryPrankster]

A less successful Anglo-Saxon invasion leads to the Saxons getting assimilated rather than conquering the entire territory and assimilating the surviving Celts.

In my "Greater Britain" thread (Great Britain incorporates Brittany in western France), the POD is a Celtic victory at Dyrrham, which keeps the Celts of Wales, Devon, and Cornwall geographically united. The Saxons warlords get incorporated into the Celtic "High King" system.

Now, successful imperialism based on a decentralized "High King" system might be kinda tricky to pull off. Perhaps in the more dangerous Dark Ages environment, the High King acculmulates more power in foreign affairs (waging wars and the like) but his domestic control remains limited.

[Yellmic Wigwawa]

How would a "Celtic" Britain have coped with the Normans? It's not impossible that a Celtic Britain, speaking the forerunner of modern Welsh, might have withstood the Norman invasion more successfully that Harold's Saxons.

[carlton_bach]

A more decentralised Britain would have been harder to conquer. pone of the reasons William had it so relatively easy was that Saxon England was a well-established monarchy. Compare the less than sterling performance of the Normans in Scotland and Ireland.

However, I think a less centralised, Celtic-speaking England would have a historical effect much earlier. What about the Vikings? Without the infrastructure of royal control on the ground, would there be a Danelaw or a 'Scandinavian thalassocracy'? Without the Saxon kings' desire to distinguish themselves from the Celts, would there be a Synod of Whitby, a 'Roman' English church, a pro-Roman continental mission? Would Boniface and his ilk preach Patrician monasticism instead? Do we get the reform orders of Gorze and Cluny nipped in the bud?

A Europe without the papacy, and very likely more time for the Northeast Germanic and Slavic societies to adjust to the onslaught of Christianity. I personally think it would just be a matter of a few decades or centuries' delay, but if you're feeling like upsetting the apple cart, how about taking this to a pagan Balto-Slavic high kingship bordering an Irish-style christian Saxony and Scandinavia?

[robertp6165]

Originally Posted by Melvin Loh

Aside from there somehow being no Anglo-Saxon invasion and settlement of Britain during the 5th C, how else could Britain have remained a Celtic-speaking country such that even the future British Empire would be speaking in a Celtic tongue today instead of English ? (got the idea for this thread from recalling a documentary I saw earlier in the yr about the Celts, narrated by Lucy Lawless, the star of XENA)

I just saw a documentary of the Roman invasion of Britain, in which one of the historians stated that the British guerilla resistance in the first decades of Roman occupation was such that the Emperor Nero considered abandoning Britain because it was really not worth the blood and treasure it was taking to keep it pacified. What if he actually did this and Rome abandons Britain in about 60 AD, and never comes back?

I would argue that this might very well mean that Britain is still Celtic-speaking today. The reason the Anglo-Saxons were attracted to Britain was, in large part, because the Romans had been there for a long time, leaving behind towns and infrastructure which could be plundered by Saxon raiders.
So if the Romans leave early, the Anglo Saxons may never come. Or if they do, we may end up with a situation like in Scotland and Ireland, where they do not come over in sufficient numbers to subdue the native population, and the Celtic languages survive.

[Alayta]

The romans were the oecd of the antique. If they would not go to the british islands, the inhabitants of this aerea would be relativly underdeveloped and so increasingly unable to withstand any saxon or whatever continental invasion, i think.

[carlton_bach]

Funny thing about resisting invasion - the more complex your society gets, the harder it is. Sure, a more complex society allows you to deploy more resources, but once the government is broken, that's it. A fragmented, self-sufficient tribal society is basically unconquerable short of massive atrocity or extermination. Compare the English and the Irish, the Aztecs and the Lakota, the Lombards and the Saxons.