Go Back   Alternate History Discussion Board > Discussion > Alternate History Discussion: After 1900

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old August 26th, 2013, 01:32 AM
Orville_third Orville_third is offline
Defender of Abkhazia
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Piedmont Socialist Republic
Posts: 1000 or more
Would it have prevented the rise Orthodoxy, to say nothing of the Roerich Movement and the Rasputniks in the West?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
I see yours and raise a supercomputer inside a medieval chapel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jello_Biafra View Post
I'm voting for the fairy princess, because that sounds most plausible.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old August 26th, 2013, 01:57 AM
CaliBoy1990 CaliBoy1990 is online now
Writer in need of de-blocking.
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Pueblo, East Texas
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orville_third View Post
Would it have prevented the rise Orthodoxy, to say nothing of the Roerich Movement and the Rasputniks in the West?
If you mean the rise of the Orthodox dictatorship in the Ukraine(and the one that followed in Belarus).....it wouldn't be impossible, but hard to pull off; the reason that they even succeeded in the first place was mainly because of the success of the Soviet Revolution, and the aborted attempt to create the Ukrainian Worker's Soviet Republic in 1920.

The Rasputniks were largely a British & German phenomenon, and wouldn't have existed without Grisha Rasputin himself. Take him outta the picture and they'd be gone, too.

As for the Orthodox people that briefly seized the south of Russia in 1916-20, that might not have happened either.

BTW, if you're looking for a good alt-history novel of an ATL World War I, check out Harry Turtledove's "Short Love" stories: the POD is actually in June of 1904, and in America of all places, but a damn good read, if you can go thru all 10 of the books. Spoilers: World War I gets delayed 10 years, Woodrow Wilson doesn't win in 1920(and doesn't die in office), nor runs in 1912, Adolf Hitler survives an ATL version of the Vienna Cafe Putsch, and Stalin lives until 1953.....

OOC: the aforementioned series is basically OTL with a few minor changes.
__________________
My Site, Steve's AH Place
My Original AH Works(no need to sign up, anyone can comment in this section)

Also, I'm on WordPress:

Last edited by CaliBoy1990; August 26th, 2013 at 02:04 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:04 AM
wcv215 wcv215 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
If you mean the rise of the Orthodox dictatorship in the Ukraine(and the one that followed in Belarus).....it wouldn't be impossible, but hard to pull off; the reason that they even succeeded in the first place was mainly because of the success of the Soviet Revolution, and the aborted attempt to create the Ukrainian Worker's Soviet Republic in 1920.
If a communist revolt overthrows the tsar there is going to be something in the Ukraine. Germany isn't going to want a hostile and polar opposite power several times its size on its front door, and Russia isn't powerful enough to stop them from doing what they want. OTL the only time the Russian were able to threaten the Ujraine dictatorship, and its twin in Belarus was while they thought Germany was too busy fighting its naval war with Britain. Given the pounding the German army gave them thanks to technological advances the Russians missed out on while rebuilding following five years of civil war it can be assumed the Germans are going to be keeping an eye on them carefully.

Quote:
The Rasputniks were largely a British & German phenomenon, and wouldn't have existed without Grisha Rasputin himself. Take him outta the picture and they'd be gone, too.
Eh, only to the point of Germany was where he started up his little cult. The fact it spread to Britain only once the Germans kicked him out you probably have a point here.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:08 AM
Doctor Evulz Doctor Evulz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
Only thing is, there WAS a Marxist state in Russia. It was called the Soviet Union, and it lasted from 1912 to 1990. Now, granted, it wasn't purely Communist for very long and became more socialist-lite(think of today's Finland) after WWII ended in the mid '40s, after a period of state capitalism(Stalin from 1925-38, then Kaganovich from '38 to '47.) but it still counts for something, even if it's pure Marxism period only lasted about 12 years or so(compare this to Zambia, which became full-on Communist after it's independence in 1959. It remained as such until 1992).

OOC: I hate to break it to you, but the OP clearly states that Russia fell to a Revolution, and the only viable Revolutionary movement in 1904 were the Communists, so.....
(At least the Nazis have been butterflied, though)
The Soviet Union was hardly Communist even before the Second World War. I'd go so far as to say that far right groups dominated for the latter half of the Union's history, as they do in modern-day Russia. Royalists (inspired by Nicholas II's survival of the revolution) even had a decent following after the Union's defeat in World War II. Despite not being nearly as devastating as the First World War, it forced Russia to cede Belarus and the Ukraine, which as stated above, fell to Orthodox dictatorships. The Soviet Union was only ever restricted to Russia and the Caucasus in the first place. How else could a Georgian like Uncle Joe come to power?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:19 AM
CaliBoy1990 CaliBoy1990 is online now
Writer in need of de-blocking.
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Pueblo, East Texas
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by wcv215 View Post
If a communist revolt overthrows the tsar there is going to be something in the Ukraine. Germany isn't going to want a hostile and polar opposite power several times its size on its front door, and Russia isn't powerful enough to stop them from doing what they want. OTL the only time the Russian were able to threaten the Ujraine dictatorship, and its twin in Belarus was while they thought Germany was too busy fighting its naval war with Britain. Given the pounding the German army gave them thanks to technological advances the Russians missed out on while rebuilding following five years of civil war it can be assumed the Germans are going to be keeping an eye on them carefully.



Eh, only to the point of Germany was where he started up his little cult. The fact it spread to Britain only once the Germans kicked him out you probably have a point here.
Well, that was true, but only up until WWII; Then the Ukrainians got curbstomped, and the Western Tsar, as they called him, found himself staring down the barrel of Soviet rifles by the end of Oct. 1944. And then they spent the better half of 4 decades as a Soviet satellite, as did Belarus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Evulz View Post
The Soviet Union was hardly Communist even before the Second World War. I'd go so far as to say that far right groups dominated for the latter half of the Union's history, as they do in modern-day Russia. Royalists (inspired by Nicholas II's survival of the revolution) even had a decent following after the Union's defeat in World War II. Despite not being nearly as devastating as the First World War, it forced Russia to cede Belarus and the Ukraine, which as stated above, fell to Orthodox dictatorships. The Soviet Union was only ever restricted to Russia and the Caucasus in the first place. How else could a Georgian like Uncle Joe come to power?
OOC: I'm sorry but I don't think far-right groups would even be *allowed* in the U.S.S.R., let alone get the chance to become dominant. Also, the Russian Empire didn't survive the war, or the Revolution, therefore, it stands that the USSR almost certainly would have controlled Siberia, and likely Kazakhstan with it, as well, if they took most of European Russia. Furthermore, the Ukraine was independent *before* World War II.
__________________
My Site, Steve's AH Place
My Original AH Works(no need to sign up, anyone can comment in this section)

Also, I'm on WordPress:
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:20 AM
Doctor Evulz Doctor Evulz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
BTW, if you're looking for a good alt-history novel of an ATL World War I, check out Harry Turtledove's "Short Love" stories: the POD is actually in June of 1904, and in America of all places, but a damn good read, if you can go thru all 10 of the books. Spoilers: World War I gets delayed 10 years, Woodrow Wilson doesn't win in 1920(and doesn't die in office), nor runs in 1912, Adolf Hitler survives an ATL version of the Vienna Cafe Putsch, and Stalin lives until 1953.....
I'm sorry, but that sounds as implausible as almost every other book that Turtledove guy wrote. I had to look up Adolf Hitler and he couldn't have gotten any political power in Austria-Hungary. His "Austrian Workers' Party" never got more than a thousand members at its peak, despite the Deep Depression happening. Even then, that was several years before he got involved. There is NO way Hitler could have taken over that dying party and seized power. His little coup attempt in Vienna proved that.

Also, the World War happened when it did for a reason. If an analogue war doesn't happen within five years of that time, it probably wouldn't happen at all.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:25 AM
Doctor Evulz Doctor Evulz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
OOC: I'm sorry but I don't think far-right groups would even be *allowed* in the U.S.S.R., let alone dominate. Also, the Russian Empire didn't survive the war, therefore, the USSR also controlled Siberia as well.
OOC: This is an alternate USSR. Note that they rose only after the Soviets' defeat in World War II. If people think that communism led to their defeat, a far right leader could take control of the government. 'Soviet' means 'council' after all, not necessarily a communist one, so a Soviet Union could still exist.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:25 AM
CaliBoy1990 CaliBoy1990 is online now
Writer in need of de-blocking.
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Pueblo, East Texas
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
Well, that was true, but only up until WWII; Then the Ukrainians got curbstomped, and the Western Tsar, as they called him, found himself staring down the barrel of Soviet rifles by the end of Oct. 1944. And then they spent the better half of 4 decades as a Soviet satellite, as did Belarus.



OOC: I'm sorry but I don't think far-right groups would even be *allowed* in the U.S.S.R., let alone get the chance to become dominant. Also, the Russian Empire didn't survive the war, or the Revolution, therefore, it stands that the USSR almost certainly would have controlled Siberia, and likely Kazakhstan with it, as well, if they took most of European Russia. Furthermore, the Ukraine was independent *before* World War II.
OOC: Also,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Evulz View Post
I'm sorry, but that sounds as implausible as almost every other book that Turtledove guy wrote. I had to look up Adolf Hitler and he couldn't have gotten any political power in Austria-Hungary. His "Austrian Workers' Party" never got more than a thousand members at its peak, despite the Deep Depression happening. Even then, that was several years before he got involved. There is NO way Hitler could have taken over that dying party and seized power. His little coup attempt in Vienna proved that.

Also, the World War happened when it did for a reason. If an analogue war doesn't happen within five years of that time, it probably wouldn't happen at all.
It's a lot more plausible than you'd think. I assume you haven't read all 10 books. I have, and it is *quite* plausible.....certainly much more so than Clive Disraeli's "Columbian Empire", which seems to be quite adored by a lot of the same people complaining about Turtledove.
__________________
My Site, Steve's AH Place
My Original AH Works(no need to sign up, anyone can comment in this section)

Also, I'm on WordPress:
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:25 AM
wcv215 wcv215 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
Well, that was true, but only up until WWII; Then the Ukrainians got curbstomped, and the Western Tsar, as they called him, found himself staring down the barrel of Soviet rifles by the end of Oct. 1944. And then they spent the better half of 4 decades as a Soviet satellite, as did Belarus.
Not really. Sure the Russian claimed to have control over them, but it didn't stop the Ukraine from doing whatever it wanted when the Germans turned their attention back to the East in '46 and the war ended. The only reason it was even nominally a Spviet state was because Germany was too tired from fighting the British and Turks since '36 to go in and give them another bloody nose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Evulz View Post
The Soviet Union was hardly Communist even before the Second World War.
I've always questioned this whole "Second World War" business that people like to mention. It was more like a series of small wars that tend to get conflated. You had Germany at war with the Russians, the British and the Turks. The British at war with Germany and Japan. Japan at war with Britain, China, and the United States. The United States at war with only Japan. ThevTurks at war with Austria-Hungary and Germany, etc. Austria, Japan, the United States, China, and Russia never acted outside their respective theater and weren't at war with most of the other major players. Sure casualties were three times those of the World War, but it was also spread out over almost ten years versus the three of the World War.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:26 AM
Doctor Evulz Doctor Evulz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
It's a lot more plausible than you'd think. I assume you haven't read all 10 books. I have.
I couldn't get past the first. I don't know, maybe it is plausible, but I don't see how.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:29 AM
CaliBoy1990 CaliBoy1990 is online now
Writer in need of de-blocking.
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Pueblo, East Texas
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by wcv215 View Post
OOC: why is this responding to me? I was saying Germany is going to back groups that will oppose the communists



I've always questioned this whole "Second World War" business that people like to mention. It was more like a series of small wars that tend to get conflated. You had Germany at war with the Russians, the British and the Turks. The British at war with Germany and Japan. Japan at war with Britain, China, and the United States. The United States at war with only Japan. ThevTurks at war with Austria-Hungary and Germany, etc. Austria, Japan, the United States, China, and Russia never acted outside their respective theater and weren't at war with most of the other major players. Sure casualties were three times those of the World War, but it was also spread out over almost ten years versus the three of the World War.
OOC: What? Sorry, but this explanation doesn't make sense.

IC: Nope,the second World War was from 1938-45(partisan fighting DID continue until '46, though, but the Germans lost. You sure you aren't reading from Stirling?). Apparently you've been reading the wrong history books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Evulz View Post
I couldn't get past the first. I don't know, maybe it is plausible, but I don't see how.
Admittedly, the first one was a bit flawed in some respects. All the others are pretty good overall, though.

My main gripe with the "Columbian Empire" was that it got away with a lot more actual skirting of plausibility simply because it was edgy at the time(1991-95), than Harry T. did.....but that's another story.
__________________
My Site, Steve's AH Place
My Original AH Works(no need to sign up, anyone can comment in this section)

Also, I'm on WordPress:
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:30 AM
Doctor Evulz Doctor Evulz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by wcv215 View Post
I've always questioned this whole "Second World War" business that people like to mention. It was more like a series of small wars that tend to get conflated. You had Germany at war with the Russians, the British and the Turks. The British at war with Germany and Japan. Japan at war with Britain, China, and the United States. The United States at war with only Japan. ThevTurks at war with Austria-Hungary and Germany, etc. Austria, Japan, the United States, China, and Russia never acted outside their respective theater and weren't at war with most of the other major players. Sure casualties were three times those of the World War, but it was also spread out over almost ten years versus the three of the World War.
Some call it the Second World War, some call it the Wars of 1938. The Americans call it the Patriotic War, the British call it the German Affair. Really, every nation has its own personal name for it.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:32 AM
CaliBoy1990 CaliBoy1990 is online now
Writer in need of de-blocking.
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Pueblo, East Texas
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Evulz View Post
Some call it the Second World War, some call it the Wars of 1938. The Americans call it the Patriotic War, the British call it the German Affair. Really, every nation has its own personal name for it.
OOC: I don't think the U.S. would call it the "Patriotic War". Russia seems far more plausible, TBH.

IC: Actually, that was the Russians who called it the Patriotic War. We Americans just call it WWII.
__________________
My Site, Steve's AH Place
My Original AH Works(no need to sign up, anyone can comment in this section)

Also, I'm on WordPress:
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:32 AM
Doctor Evulz Doctor Evulz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
Admittedly, the first one was a bit flawed in some respects. All the others are pretty good overall, though.
I'll concede that with Turtledove, the later books in the series are always more plausible and less arbitarily 'convergent' than the first few.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:35 AM
CaliBoy1990 CaliBoy1990 is online now
Writer in need of de-blocking.
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Pueblo, East Texas
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Evulz View Post
I'll concede that with Turtledove, the later books in the series are always more plausible and less arbitarily 'convergent' than the first few.
True. And to Disraeli's credit, he actually didn't converge too much; but unfortunately, his problem was that he *abused* the butterflies at times and sometimes tried to use that as an excuse for some of the more questionable aspects of the canon, when criticized. Turtledove did a better job explaining *his* methods, TBH.

Anyhow....
__________________
My Site, Steve's AH Place
My Original AH Works(no need to sign up, anyone can comment in this section)

Also, I'm on WordPress:
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:37 AM
Doctor Evulz Doctor Evulz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
OOC: I don't think the U.S. would call it the "Patriotic War". Russia seems far more plausible, TBH.

IC: Actually, that was the Russians who called it the Patriotic War. We Americans just call it WWII.
Really? I've heard some of the more... well... "conservative" folk call it that. Like in President Olsen's infamous "Cold War Turns Hot" speech after the Aleutian Islands Incident. Thank God the Germans were able to mediate and prevent another major war.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:41 AM
CaliBoy1990 CaliBoy1990 is online now
Writer in need of de-blocking.
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Pueblo, East Texas
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor Evulz View Post
Really? I've heard some of the more... well... "conservative" folk call it that. Like in President Olsen's infamous "Cold War Turns Hot" speech after the Aleutian Islands Incident. Thank God the Germans were able to mediate and prevent another major war.
IC: Some do, yeah, but it's not the official name. As for Mr. Olsen, he was probably the greatest politico to ever come out of Minnesota.....and Chancellor Goldmann(Social Democrats) deserves credit as well.
__________________
My Site, Steve's AH Place
My Original AH Works(no need to sign up, anyone can comment in this section)

Also, I'm on WordPress:
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:42 AM
Axeman Axeman is offline
Insufferable Contrarian
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by wcv215 View Post
I've always questioned this whole "Second World War" business that people like to mention. It was more like a series of small wars that tend to get conflated. You had Germany at war with the Russians, the British and the Turks. The British at war with Germany and Japan. Japan at war with Britain, China, and the United States. The United States at war with only Japan. ThevTurks at war with Austria-Hungary and Germany, etc. Austria, Japan, the United States, China, and Russia never acted outside their respective theater and weren't at war with most of the other major players. Sure casualties were three times those of the World War, but it was also spread out over almost ten years versus the three of the World War.
Because the combatants again were de-facto alligned into 2 camps and fighting each other.

The British were not officially at war with Austria-Hungary, but they just blockaded that Adriatic and sunk 3 Austrian dreadnaughts when they tried to make a dash for Salonika through the blockade to Bulgarian Waters. It was just diplomatic ease and financial reasons " No Mr. Banker, we are only at war with 1 country, nevermind the fact that all that countries allies shoot at us and won't trade with us, loan please " .

Also in America I've heard the terms " World War II, Patriotic War, and The Golden Gate War " Back to avenge the Golden Gate by '48 " .
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:48 AM
Doctor Evulz Doctor Evulz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axeman View Post
Because the combatants again were de-facto alligned into 2 camps and fighting each other.

The British were not officially at war with Austria-Hungary, but they just blockaded that Adriatic and sunk 3 Austrian dreadnaughts when they tried to make a dash for Salonika through the blockade to Bulgarian Waters. It was just diplomatic ease and financial reasons " No Mr. Banker, we are only at war with 1 country, nevermind the fact that all that countries allies shoot at us and won't trade with us, loan please " .

Also in America I've heard the terms " World War II, Patriotic War, and The Golden Gate War " Back to avenge the Golden Gate by '48 " .
My grandfather was visiting San Francisco when the bomb on the Golden Gate Bridge went off. He hasn't trusted a single Asian person since. If Japan was trying to intimidate us, it backfired horribly.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:50 AM
Doctor Evulz Doctor Evulz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
IC: Some do, yeah, but it's not the official name. As for Mr. Olsen, he was probably the greatest politico to ever come out of Minnesota.....and Chancellor Goldmann(Social Democrats) deserves credit as well.
Honestly, I dislike Olsen and the surge of conservative Democrats he helped create. Goldmann's role was far more instrumental. Olsen just knew how to take all the credit.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.