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  #4621  
Old August 3rd, 2013, 09:17 PM
stjernkjempe stjernkjempe is offline
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Originally Posted by Municipal Engines View Post
Would the Malthusians evolve to advocate not just the control and reduction of the human population, but also the refining of it? They seem ripe for eugenicists to flock to them. I mean, the "logical" step from thinking that the human population is too large is getting rid of the "undesirable" portions, such as the mentally or physically deficient and socially backwards.
I hope its okay to raise some points against the logic in the "next logical step".

Social Darwinism (from IOTL) were not all nazis and eugenics. Peter Kropotkin points out in the book "Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution" (1902) that Darwin didn't define the fitest as the the strongest. Its far from all the strongest and the best that survives. Many anymals survives and evolve as spices through cooperation. Humans too. Or in his words "struggle is replaced by co-operation."

Its arguable that we don't need to kill the "unfit" and its arguable more "profitable" to be humane and rehabilitate. The mentally ill, physically deficient and socially backwards have all used precious resources by growing up its a waste to not rehabilitate them into productive participating members of society

Or so the argument were before the first great war IOTL. This is setting aside the logical fallacy of Social Darwinism that "natural order" is always somehting good.

I hope this gives some good insight for ITTL development of this. Eugenics don't have to be anything stranger than IOTL EUTHENICS in a liberal society.
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  #4622  
Old August 4th, 2013, 02:42 AM
Glen Glen is offline
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Originally Posted by Municipal Engines View Post
Would the Malthusians evolve to advocate not just the control and reduction of the human population, but also the refining of it? They seem ripe for eugenicists to flock to them. I mean, the "logical" step from thinking that the human population is too large is getting rid of the "undesirable" portions, such as the mentally or physically deficient and socially backwards.
It's a possibility.
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  #4623  
Old August 4th, 2013, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Julius Vogel View Post
Right, this thread is now in ASB territory.

The electric chair has a will to exist and the idea of a murderous chair is universal in human societies and I'd thank you to acknowledge that Glen!

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  #4624  
Old August 5th, 2013, 12:09 AM
Glen Glen is offline
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Originally Posted by stjernkjempe View Post
I hope its okay to raise some points against the logic in the "next logical step".
Absolutely. I would also note that what is the 'next logical step' for OTL is not always such for TTL.

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Social Darwinism (from IOTL) were not all nazis and eugenics.
No, but some of it was as bad.

Quote:
Peter Kropotkin points out in the book "Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution" (1902) that Darwin didn't define the fitest as the the strongest.
True, it should rather have stated that those who fit the environment the best were the ones who thrived.

Quote:
Its far from all the strongest and the best that survives. Many anymals survives and evolve as spices through cooperation. Humans too. Or in his words "struggle is replaced by co-operation."
But isn't that just another form of strength? "You will be assimilated..."

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Its arguable that we don't need to kill the "unfit" and its arguable more "profitable" to be humane and rehabilitate.
No argument from me on that.

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The mentally ill, physically deficient and socially backwards have all used precious resources by growing up its a waste to not rehabilitate them into productive participating members of society
A reasonable point of view, though I suppose the nazis would counter that it was throwing good money after bad, as it were. Of course, I find that thoroughly disgusting on many levels, but that's what their argument would likely be.

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Or so the argument were before the first great war IOTL. This is setting aside the logical fallacy of Social Darwinism that "natural order" is always somehting good.
Yeah, sometimes nature's a real mutha'.

Quote:
I hope this gives some good insight for ITTL development of this. Eugenics don't have to be anything stranger than IOTL EUTHENICS in a liberal society.
I appreciate your thoughts, though I already have a pretty clear idea of how this part of the cultural history of TTL will play out. Stay tuned to find out!
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  #4625  
Old August 7th, 2013, 01:26 AM
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The music of the Southrons of the Dominion continued to be some of the most unique sounding of the Western World, and grew in both popularity and sophistication in the early 20th century. The rise of the Kinetograph also saw the rise of a new Southron style of music, Backbeat. Backbeat combined the Southron music of the 19th century with the use of orchestral instruments from the Classical tradition of Europe and then turned it upside down to create a large, booming, yet oddly personal sound that would become the hallmark of Southron Kinee soundtracks as well as the subject of several musical Kinees.

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  #4626  
Old August 7th, 2013, 07:12 PM
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Nice little update, Glen. What would "Backbeat" sound like to our ears, BTW? I imagine a "blues"-ier sounding country/ragtime sort of thing, but maybe I'm wrong.

Keep up the good work!
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  #4627  
Old August 7th, 2013, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by FleetMac View Post
Nice little update, Glen. What would "Backbeat" sound like to our ears, BTW? I imagine a "blues"-ier sounding country/ragtime sort of thing, but maybe I'm wrong.

Keep up the good work!
Actually think swing/big band/boogie woogie with a heavier Latin influence.
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  #4628  
Old August 7th, 2013, 11:01 PM
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A number of Dominion kinetograph production studios were open in the Province of Albion (perhaps appropriately given the lyrical name of the province), with one of the earliest successes being the appropriately named Albion Studios. Albion Studios made everything from epics about the Global War, tales of the taming of the West, and even the Slaver Rebellion to ethnic kinees with predominantly Black or Hindoo casts marketed towards those audiences (especially popular overseas were the Hindoo kinees). Albion kinees were known for their lively Backbeat soundtracks and musicals as well. Albion productions often found appreciative audiences in the United States where they were considered somewhat exotic as well as entertaining. A harder market to break into was the European market, even Great Britain was challenging given their tastes for more Anglocentric stories, though Albion and other Southron studios strove to provide such. However, San Diego and Coronado, where most of the kinetograph industry was situated, was a poor substitute for the green hills of England.

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  #4629  
Old August 8th, 2013, 04:53 PM
naraht naraht is offline
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Originally Posted by Glen View Post
However, San Diego and Coronado, where most of the kinetograph industry was situated, was a poor substitute for the green hills of England.
OTOH, the area around OTL Nashville, Tennessee (TTL's north central Carleton) would probably be the best area in the DSA for filming things which are supposed to be England (and farther east toward the Appalachians *might* fill in for Scotland), otherwise the areas with the appropriate amount of Green are probably in the USA.
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  #4630  
Old August 8th, 2013, 10:44 PM
CaliBoy1990 CaliBoy1990 is offline
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Originally Posted by naraht View Post
OTOH, the area around OTL Nashville, Tennessee (TTL's north central Carleton) would probably be the best area in the DSA for filming things which are supposed to be England (and farther east toward the Appalachians *might* fill in for Scotland), otherwise the areas with the appropriate amount of Green are probably in the USA.
Sounds good to me, personally.
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  #4631  
Old August 8th, 2013, 11:45 PM
jycee jycee is offline
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Originally Posted by naraht View Post
OTOH, the area around OTL Nashville, Tennessee (TTL's north central Carleton) would probably be the best area in the DSA for filming things which are supposed to be England (and farther east toward the Appalachians *might* fill in for Scotland), otherwise the areas with the appropriate amount of Green are probably in the USA.
Actually, you could probably find somewhere in the San Joaquin Valley that fits. It won't be perfect but good enough for the cheap film. Furthermore at this time most films are filmed indoors in sound stages, so it shouldn't be too much a problem.
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  #4632  
Old August 9th, 2013, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by naraht View Post
OTOH, the area around OTL Nashville, Tennessee (TTL's north central Carleton) would probably be the best area in the DSA for filming things which are supposed to be England (and farther east toward the Appalachians *might* fill in for Scotland), otherwise the areas with the appropriate amount of Green are probably in the USA.
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Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990 View Post
Sounds good to me, personally.
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Originally Posted by jycee View Post
Actually, you could probably find somewhere in the San Joaquin Valley that fits. It won't be perfect but good enough for the cheap film. Furthermore at this time most films are filmed indoors in sound stages, so it shouldn't be too much a problem.
Thank you for the comments, gentlemen. You all make good points. I am certain that all of the above will be used by ambitious Southron Kinetomakers.
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  #4633  
Old August 15th, 2013, 07:28 PM
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  #4634  
Old August 26th, 2013, 01:57 AM
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The history of Corn Whiskey in the border regions of the USA and DSA is a storied one, filled with rivalries and sheenanigans. The US state of Kentucky has the best claim to have originated the use of corn, oak casks, and sour mash. However, the Loyalist dominated British Province of Carleton was no far behind, and often claimed to have the superior conditions to distill the quintessential border beverage. In Kentucky it was called Kentucky Bourbon Whiskey (named after the county that was named after the Bourbon royal family of France prior to the French Revolution), but in Carleton it was Carleton Corn Whiskey. By the 1920s, Kentucky Bourbon and Carleton Corn were some of those regions best selling imports worldwide. Of course, most Americans claim allegiance to a Kentucky Bourbon, whereas the majority of Southrons swore by Carleton Corn.
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  #4635  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:01 AM
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Mmm...whiskey . On the one hand, Bourbon's a key ingredient in mint juleps (please tell me those haven't been butterflied). On the other hand, Jack Daniels (and Carleton Corn ITTL, I guess) works really well as a standalone beverage. Would there be a solid moonshining practice in the border region of both countries, or would it tend to fall into one or the other's traditions?
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  #4636  
Old August 26th, 2013, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by FleetMac View Post
Mmm...whiskey . On the one hand, Bourbon's a key ingredient in mint juleps (please tell me those haven't been butterflied). On the other hand, Jack Daniels (and Carleton Corn ITTL, I guess) works really well as a standalone beverage. Would there be a solid moonshining practice in the border region of both countries, or would it tend to fall into one or the other's traditions?
There is moonshine, but most production is legal. Now then, cross-border smuggling to avoid import taxes and duties, on the other hand, is a time honored tradition for both nations...
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  #4637  
Old August 26th, 2013, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Glen View Post
There is moonshine, but most production is legal. Now then, cross-border smuggling to avoid import taxes and duties, on the other hand, is a time honored tradition for both nations...
Hey, whether one salutes the Stars and Stripes or the Union Jack*, a hillbilly's a hillbilly . I wonder how common such avoidance of taxes and duties is along the border, and not just in the Appalachians?

*What does the DSA flag look like, anyhow? I know the US flag is colored differently, but I don't seem to recall seeing the Dominion's flag.
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  #4638  
Old August 26th, 2013, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by FleetMac View Post
Hey, whether one salutes the Stars and Stripes or the Union Jack*, a hillbilly's a hillbilly . I wonder how common such avoidance of taxes and duties is along the border, and not just in the Appalachians?
Well, actually not. The US type definitely has even more Scots-Irish influences culturally than the Dominion version...

Quote:
*What does the DSA flag look like, anyhow? I know the US flag is colored differently, but I don't seem to recall seeing the Dominion's flag.
Ah, now you are asking a very good question...one deserving of an update in a few days....
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  #4639  
Old August 26th, 2013, 03:39 AM
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Oh no, it just occurred to me... there'd be no Jack Daniels in this world! This TL just became a dystopia
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  #4640  
Old August 26th, 2013, 03:49 AM
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Oh no, it just occurred to me... there'd be no Jack Daniels in this world! This TL just became a dystopia
Actually, there are more and better corn whiskeys ITTL - and there will be no Prohibition interregnum...
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