AHC: Chinese conquest of Mexico

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

So is this a vassal state or a colony/province/whatever of China? There's a huge difference.

So a territory belonging to China, and not a vassal state.

Yes.

But because of distance it wouldn't be integrated. Many colonies throughout history could be called vassal states, but this would be more like a viceroyalty. It is administrated in the ruler's name, not administrated independently to serve the ruler.

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Incidentally, I presume you are aware Mexico's sparely populated regions are sparsely populated for a reason - and that rice farming would do extremely poorly there.

By sparsely-populated north, I meant everything north or northeast of Jalisco, not just the far desert. Also, in this scenario Mexico/New Spain may well include the highly habitable California.

And the Chinese farm grain as well as rice. And could adopt corn and beans if they had territory in the area. The natives would keep farming corn and beans, at least.

Originally Posted by Elfwine

And why would they be unreliable where as Chinese-descended people would be? The mountains are high and the Emperor is far away, as the saying goes.

Mestizos and criollos would support Spain and be horrified at the prospect of being ruled by not only non-Catholics, but from their perspectives, pagans.

I suppose indios (descendants of former Mesoamerican royal families, perhaps) could be reliable rulers of Chinese Mexico. But it really wouldn't be that hard to send settlers, especially if an invasion force had already been sent.

[Color-Copycat]

Chinese grain cultivation prior to the 20th century was largely restricted to the northern provinces, whose residents would've been the least likely to go abroad. It's always been the rice growing, seafaring southerners, particularly people from Guangdong province, who form the bulwark of Chinese diaspora/immigrant communities, whether in SE Asia or wherever.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Yes.

But because of distance it wouldn't be integrated. Many colonies throughout history could be called vassal states, but this would be more like a viceroyalty. It is administrated in the ruler's name, not administrated independently to serve the ruler.

So call it a viceroyalty or something clear and coherent so that this doesn't bog down into needless and frustrating confusion.

By sparsely-populated north, I meant everything north or northeast of Jalisco, not just the far desert. Also, in this scenario Mexico/New Spain may well include the highly habitable California.

If you want to include California, don't say "Mexico" unless you're making it clear that's from the point when Mexico ruled this area. Again, why you try confusion when clarity work better.

And the Chinese farm grain as well as rice. And could adopt corn and beans if they had territory in the area. The natives would keep farming corn and beans, at least.

See Color-Copycat's post. And learning how to grow corn and beans is going to be easier said than done when you don't speak the language and the natives aren't friendly (why do they want to see you survive?).

Mestizos and criollos would support Spain and be horrified at the prospect of being ruled by not only non-Catholics, but from their perspectives, pagans.

I suppose indios (descendants of former Mesoamerican royal families, perhaps) could be reliable rulers of Chinese Mexico. But it really wouldn't be that hard to send settlers, especially if an invasion force had already been sent.

It wouldn't be that easy either. And I'm missing why the Chinese sent aren't going to take advantage of being practically out of reach.

[Magnum]

Maybe some nuclear war a couple of centuries from now in a world with scare ressources, extremist ideologies, economic collapse, a nasty virus and climate change gone wild, which sees Mexico surrender to China ?

[wolf_brother]

Like I said gents, practically A.S.B.

[B_Munro]

Just out of curiosity, how far back do you folks think you'd need to put a POD to get a China that was interested in overseas colonization (and perhaps be willing to nab other people's colonies.)? Given time to play with, could we get a more universalist idea of the Mandate of Heaven, which calls for it's expansion more vigorously that just having local tributaries? A religious motivation? (China goes *Christian or perhaps a pro-conversion brand of Buddhism?) A more permanent north-south split in which the south's greater interest in trade and SE Asian affairs is accentuated?

China may have some inherent problems that act against a colonial policy regardless of the type of government or its ideology (a high level of self-sufficiency, huge population compared to the $ available in early global trade, perpetual issues with land enemies - either the steppe or other Chinese dynasties, and much poorer placing for getting to the Americas than Europe) but the basic message "The Chinese didn't do colonies OTL, so it's ASB without PODS so far back that the world is utterly alien, so it's pointless to even talk about" seems a bit too strong.

Bruce

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

Just out of curiosity, how far back do you folks think you'd need to put a POD to get a China that was interested in overseas colonization (and perhaps be willing to nab other people's colonies.)? Given time to play with, could we get a more universalist idea of the Mandate of Heaven, which calls for it's expansion more vigorously that just having local tributaries? A religious motivation? (China goes *Christian or perhaps a pro-conversion brand of Buddhism?) A more permanent north-south split in which the south's greater interest in trade and SE Asian affairs is accentuated?

China may have some inherent problems that act against a colonial policy regardless of the type of government or its ideology (a high level of self-sufficiency, huge population compared to the $ available in early global trade, perpetual issues with land enemies - either the steppe or other Chinese dynasties, and much poorer placing for getting to the Americas than Europe) but the basic message "The Chinese didn't do colonies OTL, so it's ASB without PODS so far back that the world is utterly alien, so it's pointless to even talk about" seems a bit too strong.

Bruce

I think the problem is that the reasons for China developing in the direction it did - maybe not all out, but certainly to the point we can rule out *American colonies (which make much less sense with a Pacific voyage than an Atlantic one) - date back very, very far.

And a POD even as "recently" AD 1000 that has such a dramatic change would leave a very weird world by our standards. Maybe not alien in the sense of sentient life being gas-based, but certainly unrecognizable.

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

I think the problem is that the reasons for China developing in the direction it did - maybe not all out, but certainly to the point we can rule out *American colonies (which make much less sense with a Pacific voyage than an Atlantic one) - date back very, very far.

And a POD even as "recently" AD 1000 that has such a dramatic change would leave a very weird world by our standards. Maybe not alien in the sense of sentient life being gas-based, but certainly unrecognizable.

What's so wrong about speculating about weird worlds? Or with long-term PODs? It's true that any TL that goes on long enough ceases to be solid working out of consequences and becomes a matter of author preference, but cool as tightly worked out TLs like Edelstein's Male Rising are, I think there should be room on AH.com for more speculative big-sweep stuff, such as say Tormsen's Ocrit mini-TL (get back to work, Tormsen!) or Pinchovski's Araldya (?) TL.

Bruce

[Color-Copycat]

Don't let the plausibility police catch you saying that, or else you'll find yourself butterflied away.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

What's so wrong about speculating about weird worlds? Or with long-term PODs? It's true that any TL that goes on long enough ceases to be solid working out of consequences and becomes a matter of author preference, but cool as tightly worked out TLs like Edelstein's Male Rising are, I think there should be room on AH.com for more speculative big-sweep stuff, such as say Tormsen's Ocrit mini-TL (get back to work, Tormsen!) or Pinchovski's Araldya (?) TL.

Bruce

I didn't say it was wrong, I was just explaining my thoughts on how such a world would be, as Wolf_brother put it:

Originally Posted by wolf_brother

. . . so different that no matter how realistic you made it it would still seem fantastical to any OTL reader because there wouldn't be anything we could relate to due to the massive differences resulting from century upon century of butterflies.

A POD back early enough to make China look overseas for wealth as enthusiastically as Europe did (not even in the sense of looking to Asia's special goods but just in the sense of overseas commerce, colonies, etc.) would very much have the issue of 'century upon century of butterflies". I don't know how far back it would take, but even AD 1000 is a thousand years of those - and they would be extremely significant given the impact such a China would cause on the rest of the world, directly and indirectly.

If that's the kind of project you want, I'm not going to be getting in your way.

[Blackfox5]

This is going to be very hard because of the geography. Not only is Mexico farther away from China than from Europe, the Pacific approach does not have many small islands that can serve as a base for Chinese to gather forces, adapt to the climate, and serve as a logistics base. The Spanish had this through the many islands in the Caribbean. Hawaii at best can serve the same role as the Azores did.

This would take a prolonged effort by the Chinese with one or more personalities being very insistent that it be done, and I have trouble seeing that. In contrast, once the initial base in Hispanoila was made, most of the conquests were done on private initiative simply because they could.

And of course, the major motivation Europe had in sailing West is completely absent for China.

I don't see how this can be done without someone getting really, really imaginative. I wish them luck.

[democracy101]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

Just out of curiosity, how far back do you folks think you'd need to put a POD to get a China that was interested in overseas colonization (and perhaps be willing to nab other people's colonies.)? Given time to play with, could we get a more universalist idea of the Mandate of Heaven, which calls for it's expansion more vigorously that just having local tributaries? A religious motivation? (China goes *Christian or perhaps a pro-conversion brand of Buddhism?) A more permanent north-south split in which the south's greater interest in trade and SE Asian affairs is accentuated?

China may have some inherent problems that act against a colonial policy regardless of the type of government or its ideology (a high level of self-sufficiency, huge population compared to the $ available in early global trade, perpetual issues with land enemies - either the steppe or other Chinese dynasties, and much poorer placing for getting to the Americas than Europe) but the basic message "The Chinese didn't do colonies OTL, so it's ASB without PODS so far back that the world is utterly alien, so it's pointless to even talk about" seems a bit too strong.

Bruce

Take a look at this thread. I guess a PoD before 1000 might work somehow, but at that point, there would be too many butterflies for a coherent chain of events.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

So call it a viceroyalty or something clear and coherent so that this doesn't bog down into needless and frustrating confusion.

Yeah I know.

To reiterate everything in a more clear way:
- Spanish hold Mexico until 1580. The people who hold it afterward need not be Chinese, there can be an intermediary occupier.
- Mexico is the pre-Mexican-American-War definition of Mexico.
- China is partially-Westernized (probably in a Meiji type way).
- Mexico becomes a Chinese territory, ruled by a representative of the Emperor.

Originally Posted by Elfwine

If you want to include California, don't say "Mexico" unless you're making it clear that's from the point when Mexico ruled this area. Again, why you try confusion when clarity work better.

Mexico in the 18th/19th century includes California, and all cliché Chinese New Worlds include California. This confusion unlike the others wasn't my fault.

Originally Posted by Elfwine

See Color-Copycat's post. And learning how to grow corn and beans is going to be easier said than done when you don't speak the language and the natives aren't friendly (why do they want to see you survive?).

Natives would give the Chinese a chance since they destroyed the oppressive Spanish.

Originally Posted by Elfwine

It wouldn't be that easy either. And I'm missing why the Chinese sent aren't going to take advantage of being practically out of reach.

Between freedom and safety many will opt for safety. The Chinese conquerors of Mexico will invite at least a few kinsmen to secure their rule. They will balance this with the desire for relative independence.

Also the viceroy would be supportive of the Chinese emperor.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Yeah I know.

To reiterate everything in a more clear way:
- Spanish hold Mexico until 1580. The people who hold it afterward need not be Chinese, there can be an intermediary occupier.
- Mexico is the pre-Mexican-American-War definition of Mexico.
- China is partially-Westernized (probably in a Meiji type way).
- Mexico becomes a Chinese territory, ruled by a representative of the Emperor.

Mexico in the 18th/19th century includes California, and all cliché Chinese New Worlds include California. This confusion unlike the others wasn't my fault.

"Chinese conquest of Mexico" implies well, Mexico, unless said otherwise. Not Chinese California. So thank you for spelling it out.

Natives would give the Chinese a chance since they destroyed the oppressive Spanish.

I'm using natives in the sense of the people already there, my bad.

Between freedom and safety many will opt for safety. The Chinese conquerors of Mexico will invite at least a few kinsmen to secure their rule. They will balance this with the desire for relative independence.

Also the viceroy would be supportive of the Chinese emperor.

Safety? This isn't about freedom vs. safety, this is about "I've always wanted to be king" vs. "what are the odds of the emperor being able to do something about it".

And why the viceroy is going to be immune to that needs an actual answer.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Safety? This isn't about freedom vs. safety, this is about "I've always wanted to be king" vs. "what are the odds of the emperor being able to do something about it".

And why the viceroy is going to be immune to that needs an actual answer.

The viceroy wouldn't be immune to that, but the emperor would probably choose his most loyal relative or adviser.

And I fail to see why inviting a few hundred Chinese settlers, especially peasants or traders who don't have massive egos and ambitions, wouldn't be a good option for the viceroy or the former soldiers that conquered Mexico.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

The viceroy wouldn't be immune to that, but the emperor would probably choose his most loyal relative or adviser.

Sure. And maybe the initial viceroy even is loyal. What of his replacement? How is he replaced - there's going to be several months between the old one dying and a new one coming in from China.

And I fail to see why inviting a few hundred Chinese settlers, especially peasants or traders who don't have massive egos and ambitions, wouldn't be a good option for the viceroy or the former soldiers that conquered Mexico.

What part of "The mountains are high and the Emperor is far away." requires a massive ego or ambition to take advantage of?

This isn't impossible to check, or overseas empire would be unmanagable, but this won't necessarily be easy, either, and the Pacific's size means that it's easier to ignore the leader back home than if he was in Europe (and thus across a smaller ocean).

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Sure. And maybe the initial viceroy even is loyal. What of his replacement? How is he replaced - there's going to be several months between the old one dying and a new one coming in from China.

What part of "The mountains are high and the Emperor is far away." requires a massive ego or ambition to take advantage of?

This isn't impossible to check, or overseas empire would be unmanagable, but this won't necessarily be easy, either, and the Pacific's size means that it's easier to ignore the leader back home than if he was in Europe (and thus across a smaller ocean).

Of course they can ignore the Emperor occasionally. But they won't be afraid to invite Chinesemen to secure their control.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Of course they can ignore the Emperor occasionally. But they won't be afraid to invite Chinesemen to secure their control.

Not just "occasionally". Easily and frequently.

The question is why they don't.

And inviting Chinesemen doesn't necessarily mean they're coming, although I'm sure this can be addressed.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Not just "occasionally". Easily and frequently.

The question is why they don't.

And inviting Chinesemen doesn't necessarily mean they're coming, although I'm sure this can be addressed.

Oh I thought your argument was that they wouldn't want to invite Chinese settlers.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

Oh I thought your argument was that they wouldn't want to invite Chinese settlers.

Well, I'm not sure they would. And depending on what regions we're talking about, it might not even be desirable to.