Prince Henry of Prussia: The Rise of U-Boat.

[lukedalton]

Originally Posted by Deimos

One customer is practically guaranteed to buy 1 or 2 modern capital ships from Italy (since it is doubtful the UK would sell anything of the like to her) - South Africa.

Well money don't smell . Frankly i see Italy reputation take a little dive as many will see first as a 'traitorous' nation who profiteed by the most apocalyptic war of modern time making big businees with both side and later buying land for a pittance, and now sell weapon at anyone who can afford it...well you can't pleas anyone.
In a more serious note, an economical succesfully Italy who had also land where sent some of her emigrants mean that the emigration pattern are screwed and a lot of demographics will change.

[Deimos]

Originally Posted by lukedalton

Frankly i see Italy reputation take a little dive as many will see first as a 'traitorous' nation who profiteed by the most apocalyptic war of modern time making big businees with both side and later buying land for a pittance, and now sell weapon at anyone who can afford it...well you can't pleas anyone.

If your continuous input regarding Italy is any indication one can't even please the Italians themselves.
They along with Japan are among the winners of this conflict - becoming the second-greatest continental power by pure virtue of being neutral and economically-minded and afterwards being the only choice of strong partner for countries like Spain, France and Greece - they have profitted immensely from this war.

And I guess you do not need to worry about Italy's reputation. What you outlined would probably only be the view of the problem-laden AH-monarchy and Germans like von Schultze being envious of Italy not having their difficulties. France and Britain will be busy resenting Germany and Russia and Poland are happily hating each other.

Originally Posted by lukedalton

In a more serious note, an economical succesfully Italy who had also land where sent some of her emigrants mean that the emigration pattern are screwed and a lot of demographics will change.

BlondieBC hinted that the coastal areas of Tunisia and Lybia will slowly become culturally European due to more Italian immigration and money to invest in these places.
It is quite astounding to imagine what will happen to certain regions of Africa if colonialism, European overpopulation with subsequent emigration and serious civilian investment like around Douala are allowed to continue.


And while I am very interested in what a naval war where one side seriously funds U-boats would look like, I am also becoming more and more interested in the (1995 AD) world the book from the opening post comes from.

[lukedalton]

[If your continuous input regarding Italy is any indication one can't even please the Italians themselves.

Complain, nag and bickering (expecially among ourselfs) are with Football our national sport; i think it even a constitutional right

They along with Japan are among the winners of this conflict - becoming the second-greatest continental power by pure virtue of being neutral and economically-minded and afterwards being the only choice of strong partner for countries like Spain, France and Greece - they have profitted immensely from this war.

What i can say, for one time we are not being to much smart for ourself, and we get to ripe the reward...the only problem is that we risk to have the OTL representant of House Savoy as King (basically a poor version of Berlusconi) and that idiot of Cadorna is not a disgraced has been, oh well you can't have all in life

And I guess you do not need to worry about Italy's reputation. What you outlined would probably only be the view of the problem-laden AH-monarchy and Germans like von Schultze being envious of Italy not having their difficulties. France and Britain will be busy resenting Germany and Russia and Poland are happily hating each other

I was a mix of facetious and extrapolate a modern time (ITTL related)view of Italy, as with Japan and the USA they will be seen by historian as the only real winner of the European big Empires fratricide; a victory achievied with luck, cynism and polical pragmatism who will make Bismark and Kissinger envy.
And yes i think that A-H will see now Italy as the creepy neighbourough with a little too much money and hardware at his disposal and who smile in a strange manner when she pass

BlondieBC hinted that the coastal areas of Tunisia and Lybia will slowly become culturally European due to more Italian immigration and money to invest in these places.
It is quite astounding to imagine what will happen to certain regions of Africa if colonialism, European overpopulation with subsequent emigration and serious civilian investment like around Douala are allowed to continue.

Yes Africa will change a lot respect OTL, but even the USA, Canada, Argentina and Australia, basically in the 10 years after the OTL end of the war, between 1500000 and 2100000 italians emigrated; i don't think that here we will see that numbers and the destination will be different (Italian new african possession and probably a big support for Eritrea and Somalia, who need a little of military support to put thing back in order, even if with no WWI involvement like Libya things can be a lot smoother for Italy)

And while I am very interested in what a naval war where one side seriously funds U-boats would look like, I am also becoming more and more interested in the (1995 AD) world the book from the opening post comes from.

So am i

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by lukedalton

Spain and Netherlands having just a couple of dreadnoughts will not save them in an open war, but there are always prestige motivation and even if not capable of beat them a couple of big modern ships can always make power think twice about casual harrassing and dissuade minor powers to attack (Netherland will have her eyes towards Japan...and France can try to prop up her credibility grabbing colony of a lot weaker opponent)

I can see that point. If either country had two 17" Dreadnoughts, they could probably wipe out the French Fleet, at least on paper. And the male ego is never to be underestimated as a driving force of history. I sort of sea Japan as contained. The UK will have a much better navy than OTL. Russia Far East divisions will be in good shape again in a few years. USA will have an impressive Navy. And the concept behind taking Hainan Island, and then fortifying and "Japanizing" it is to begin to isolate China with a ring of naval bases and use this power to gain more concessions in China.

Originally Posted by Deimos

And I guess you do not need to worry about Italy's reputation. What you outlined would probably only be the view of the problem-laden AH-monarchy and Germans like von Schultze being envious of Italy not having their difficulties. France and Britain will be busy resenting Germany and Russia and Poland are happily hating each other.



BlondieBC hinted that the coastal areas of Tunisia and Lybia will slowly become culturally European due to more Italian immigration and money to invest in these places.
It is quite astounding to imagine what will happen to certain regions of Africa if colonialism, European overpopulation with subsequent emigration and serious civilian investment like around Douala are allowed to continue.


And while I am very interested in what a naval war where one side seriously funds U-boats would look like, I am also becoming more and more interested in the (1995 AD) world the book from the opening post comes from.

Yes, probably AH army, German Navy and French Army are only ones worried about Italy right now. The German Army would figure it could just send one or two armies to help Austria take the Po Valley. At this point, it is just assumed AH would support Germany in any war for any reason. It would be the Navy that would be looking at the Italian Navy. France would be worried about Italy taking a slice of France, and I have considered that. There is a lot to be said for owning Corsica and the French Med coast. Really, despite the unhappy Italians, they are in great shape with lots of options.

On Italy, I am not even sure it will be that slow in making Libya an Italian majority. The Muslim populations are just tiny back then, so few cities of a few hundred K Italians each will go a long, long way to making it Italian. Italy was not gentle with Libya in OTL, and they will be the same ITTL. And I would assume that the Italians will end up with all the assets, one way or another. The good fishing grounds go to Italians. If you have an oasis for you clan, you will find some Italian family owns it and may well just expel your clan. No European power in Africa really worried about African property rights.

The Douala investment budget is about to be slashed. He spend hundred of millions of marks on improvements. Prewar, the 15 million marks spent over 5 years in SWA was a HUGE investment. But Kamerun has tons of electric power, some heavy industry, lots of light industry and a great rail network. It went from a swampy backwater to a place more industrialized than South Africa in just a few short years.

I only have broad brushes on where this ends. To me there are some key events that have to happen and have to shape history, but the rest is very variable.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by lukedalton

Yes Africa will change a lot respect OTL, but even the USA, Canada, Argentina and Australia, basically in the 10 years after the OTL end of the war, between 1500000 and 2100000 italians emigrated; i don't think that here we will see that numbers and the destination will be different (Italian new african possession and probably a big support for Eritrea and Somalia, who need a little of military support to put thing back in order, even if with no WWI involvement like Libya things can be a lot smoother for Italy)

Italy does have a problem that it may have very bad generals if it fights another war, but if you have a lot more divisions/equipment, it covers a lot of mistakes. I have a feeling that if Imperial Germany had another 40 modern U-boats at the start of WW1 and an extra army, we would be sitting around talking about how the Kaiser was a military genius. And quite possibly that Conrad was a good leader. The extra army in the east would have likely hidden Conrads mobilization mistakes as Russia diverted forces to deal with the German ninth Army. And the U-boats would have wreck havoc early on, and people would praise the German navy without looking at the details. Roll into 1915 with an extra German Army in the east and at least one more effective AH Army, and Russia is in a world of hurt.

I was not going to go into these other demographics a lot, but since you are interested, here is how I see them. On the USA/Argentina immigration, I don't see higher levels that OTL. The USA was moving towards being less immigrant friendly. I assume Argentina is similar. And the immigrants are very likely to be French and Russia. France avoid the absolutely horrible economics. And in Russia, the loser of the coming power struggles will tend to leave Russia instead of dying as in OTL. So for example, Boston could easily be an Irish/Ukrainian city. I see the British Empire turning in on itself, and not being as friendly to outsiders. So there will be millions of extra Italians to deal with. I am curious why you think Italian East Africa will be so attractive to Italians. I just don't see it at first blush. I was working on the assumptions that the Italians that don't stay in Italy or move to North Africa will be spread out in small groups around the world. Place like South Africa, Rhodesia or even Kamerun would be more attractive. I really see a fast movement of Italians to North Africa.

[lukedalton]

Yes, probably AH army, German Navy and French Army are only ones worried about Italy right now. The German Army would figure it could just send one or two armies to help Austria take the Po Valley. At this point, it is just assumed AH would support Germany in any war for any reason. It would be the Navy that would be looking at the Italian Navy. France would be worried about Italy taking a slice of France, and I have considered that. There is a lot to be said for owning Corsica and the French Med coast. Really, despite the unhappy Italians, they are in great shape with lots of options.

Regarding the A-H army, well they will probably go for the Maginot line option as a cost-effective solution for the safety of the Italian-Austrian border. Trying to take the Po valley, well this is more probably more the German plan than the Austro-Hungarian one, and it will probably politely discarted, after the WWI massacre in Vienna the Generals will have nightmares at the mere thought to launch an offensive in one of the most difficult terrain of Europe and they prefer left the initiative to the Italian and make them lose hundreath of thousands of men.
And this can make Giulio Douhet life in the homeland more smooth and rewarding.
France can be gutted a little or made an ally (more the word with the B in reality and a very funny/ironic thing...at least in Italy), much depends of her internal stability, in any case the big target is Nice and way down Corsica (but having a redraw of the border with minimal change but creating a favorable defensive/attacking line for Italy trump Corsica)

On Italy, I am not even sure it will be that slow in making Libya an Italian majority. The Muslim populations are just tiny back then, so few cities of a few hundred K Italians each will go a long, long way to making it Italian. Italy was not gentle with Libya in OTL, and they will be the same ITTL. And I would assume that the Italians will end up with all the assets, one way or another. The good fishing grounds go to Italians. If you have an oasis for you clan, you will find some Italian family owns it and may well just expel your clan. No European power in Africa really worried about African property rights.

No, things will not change much, without WWI to hamper Italian effort by the 20's Libya will be pacified with the good or the bad...but more probably the bad (who will not differ that much from the method used by the Fascist)and yes much if not all the best option will go to the Italians.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by lukedalton

Regarding the A-H army, well they will probably go for the Maginot line option as a cost-effective solution for the safety of the Italian-Austrian border. Trying to take the Po valley, well this is more probably more the German plan than the Austro-Hungarian one, and it will probably politely discarted, after the WWI massacre in Vienna the Generals will have nightmares at the mere thought to launch an offensive in one of the most difficult terrain of Europe and they prefer left the initiative to the Italian and make them lose hundreath of thousands of men.

Agreed. The border is short and easy to defend. The A-H plan to build a defensive line of forts backed up with a second line of forts in the likely attack lanes. Sort of a double Maginot line. In many locations, the terrain means little is needed to build a powerful defensive line. It is more having supply paths up to the high terrain. I guess they will invest heavily in mules. They are investing heavily on larger/newer naval artillery on the coast line, and the navy is designed to only control the Adriatic. The concept is to make it too expensive for Italy to even think about attacking. Much of the modernization of the Army is based on the belief that Russia will arise again and look to reverse prior losses. Galicia is not the best place to build a defensive line, and here mobility is much more important. AH believes in a war with Italy, it simply can import through German ports, so there is no need to try to force the Med.

The German Army plan is more based on the requirement to have a plan for all likely opponents.

[BlondieBC]

Capital Ships: After review the intelligence analysis, Von Schultze starts working through the German naval plans. He starts with the prestige surface ships, since the reality of working for the Kaiser and the German public opinion limits his options. The predreads are death traps when facing the most modern British battleships. Six predreads will be converted/retained as reserve barracks ships and stripped of all but the lightest weapons. Four will be retained in West Africa and two in Germany. These ships will allow the Germans to base light naval forces at locations far from existing bases with a few months lead time. The existing barracks ships in Germany will be replaced with buildings to lower costs. He instructs his public relations section to work on explaining to the German public why these ships are scrapped before the end of there expected life and why other ships will go into reserve status.

Germany will go with a plan very similar to Japan's strength levels with 16 slow battleships in Germany and 9 fast battleship in West Africa. As of late 1919, the fleet deployment is expect to be as follows:

Africa Reserve AC Squadron(9): All nine ships.

Africa BC Squadron(8): Derfflinger X3, Modified EY X5.

German BB #1 (8): Bayern X2, Konig X4, Kaiser X2.

German BB #2(8): Kaiser X2, Helgoland X4, Nassau X2

German reserve BB (12): Nassau X2, Deutschland X5, Braunschweig X5

The German war plan assumes a 3 month lead time to a major war where the skeleton crews of the reserve ships will be expanded to full crews. The placement of 18 large warships in Africa is designed to save on operating costs and allow for these ships to get around the geographic reality of the British Isles. A successor class of 4 fast battleships will begin delivery in 1920 and end in 1923. These are based on the E. Yorck designed but 32 knots to match the expected speed of the G3. These will be the first capital ships designed from the keel up to incorporate the lesson of WW1 in relation to torpedo and air defense. The will be stationed in Africa where the 4 Derfflinger will be moved to the reserve fleet and the older armored cruisers scrapped. In 1924, the first 420mm fast battleship will be delivered to serve in the home fleet. Follow up ships will be delivered in 1926,27, and 29.

[lukedalton]

I was not going to go into these other demographics a lot, but since you are interested, here is how I see them. On the USA/Argentina immigration, I don't see higher levels that OTL. The USA was moving towards being less immigrant friendly. I assume Argentina is similar. And the immigrants are very likely to be French and Russia. France avoid the absolutely horrible economics. And in Russia, the loser of the coming power struggles will tend to leave Russia instead of dying as in OTL. So for example, Boston could easily be an Irish/Ukrainian city. I see the British Empire turning in on itself, and not being as friendly to outsiders. So there will be millions of extra Italians to deal with. I am curious why you think Italian East Africa will be so attractive to Italians. I just don't see it at first blush. I was working on the assumptions that the Italians that don't stay in Italy or move to North Africa will be spread out in small groups around the world. Place like South Africa, Rhodesia or even Kamerun would be more attractive. I really see a fast movement of Italians to North Africa

East Africa as any Italian colony (all three) were considered a settler place, and from the beginning the goverment tried to encorage people to go there (with poor results), it was the Fascist who greatly expanded the immigration there even upgrading infrastrucure and begin some industries, but the precedent goverment created the basis and the idea to populate of Italian the zone. Here with more resource at disposal can still be done (and with other place less welcoming it's more appealing), basically if things go as OTL Eritrea can become a Metropolitan part of Italy without much a problem from the locals (who were the Gurka equivalent for the Regio Esercito) same things with Somalia, but it will be more difficult due to a need to complete pacification (done in the 20's) and a less cooperative population. Just for talk Ethiopia will probably target for some economic penetration and not for a planned invasion (but things can simply degenerate and bring a war even if not planned due to the region being generally instable), but some military annexation of border zone can be done if things happen.
Italian emigration movement by now is directed towards USA, Argentine, Canada, Australia but with this being more difficult is more probable South Africa/Rhodesia will be a more preferred zone, Argentine will remain second (and with so much citizens of italian origins it will be difficult to restrain too much emigration from Italy), but as i said there will be less emigration due to better economical condition...just saying when/if proibihition happen it will be the Russian or France criminal organizations to take advantages of it? Maybe l'Union Corse is the epithome for criminal organization and in general the New York culture is more east-european than OTL or that the KKK shift is attack from Italians catholic to the French/Russian menace...i don't even think that they will know/care about the difference from catholic and ortodox.

[Monty Burns]

Ships stationed in Africa are stationed in the Southern Atlantic, not the Indian ocean, I presume? What are the German plans to redeploy them to East Africa and to support them from there? In case of a war against Britain, that's where they are needed.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

Ships stationed in Africa are stationed in the Southern Atlantic, not the Indian ocean, I presume? What are the German plans to redeploy them to East Africa and to support them from there? In case of a war against Britain, that's where they are needed.

Yes, Douala is the only place with the drydocks and cranes needed to support capital ships long term. Dar Es Salaam was more a U-boat port and cruiser port prewar, and did not really get wartime upgrades. It has some reef issues, and I am not sure a new fast battleship would even fit in the harbor. And with the post war funding crash, the upgrade money is really gone. Keeping budget constraints in gives a richness to a TL. People often talk about things the UK should have done in the interwar years such as defend the backside of Singapore and secure the water supply or Hong Kong pathetic defenses or not funding more ASW test, but a lot of it is the just the size of the budget which is really beyond the control of a Sea Lord.

And while the Germans had a hugely successful war, especially the navy, the German failed to a large extent in East Africa. They lost the port of Tanga and they were not strong enough to take Zanzibar. And with the UK expected to bring in 15" coastal guns, airplanes, and other improvements, Dar Es Salaam is a marginal base in a war with the UK. And there is no one else really to fight in the Indian Ocean. So the planning has moved to making the Atlantic a "German Lake" as much as possible.

Often you start wars with glaring unmet needs. I think you can see that even with what I have finished that the RN larger budget and flat budget for the German Navy causes real issues, if Germany can't get the Ottomans to join the war.

[Detlef]

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

Capital Ships: After review the intelligence analysis, Von Schultze starts working through the German naval plans. He starts with the prestige surface ships, since the reality of working for the Kaiser and the German public opinion limits his options. The predreads are death traps when facing the most modern British battleships. Six predreads will be converted/retained as reserve barracks ships and stripped of all but the lightest weapons. Four will be retained in West Africa and two in Germany. These ships will allow the Germans to base light naval forces at locations far from existing bases with a few months lead time. The existing barracks ships in Germany will be replaced with buildings to lower costs. He instructs his public relations section to work on explaining to the German public why these ships are scrapped before the end of there expected life and why other ships will go into reserve status.

Makes sense to use some pre-dreads as "tenders". They got some storage rooms, workshops, showers and a mess capable of feeding hundreds of sailors. Useful for anything smaller than a cruiser.
And the main guns can be used for coastal defense.

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

Germany will go with a plan very similar to Japan's strength levels with 16 slow battleships in Germany and 9 fast battleship in West Africa. As of late 1919, the fleet deployment is expect to be as follows:

Africa Reserve AC Squadron(9): All nine ships.

Which nine ships?
I´d only consider Blücher, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau worth saving for now?
Anything older is too slow and too lightly armed?
The three ACs mentioned above plus either the 5 Deutschland or Braunschweig class pre-dreads would make more sense? Even if 1-2 knots slower they´re at least better armed.
Or the older Nassau class BBs? As fast as the older ACs but much better armed and armored.
Especially since even the older ACs (Prinz Adalbert class, Roon, Yorck) have crews of roughly 600 sailors. The pre-dreads 750, the Nassau class BBs 1000. So the savings in manpower aren´t large.

Frankly the older ACs are even larger death traps than pre-dreads in my opinion.

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

Africa BC Squadron(9):Derfflinger X4, Modified EY X5.

Did they build a fourth Derfflinger class BC in your TL? In addition to Derfflinger, Lützow and Hindenburg?

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

German BB #1 (8): Bayern X2, Konig X4, Kaiser X2.

German BB #2(8): Kaiser X2, Helgoland X4, Nassau X2

Don´t want to reread 56 pages.
Did anything happen to the fifth Kaiser class BB? Sunk?

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

German reserve BB (12): Nassau X2, Deutschland X5, Braunschweig X5

The ten (Deutschland and Braunschweig class) pre-dreads only make sense as a reserve for the Baltic Sea. For a few years at most and against Russia.
However as mentioned above I´m skeptical about the Africa reserve AC squadron. Mothballing the older ACs in Germany and sending the 5 Deutschland class pre-dreads as a reserve to Africa seems to make more sense?

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

The German war plan assumes a 3 month lead time to a major war where the skeleton crews of the reserve ships will be expanded to full crews. The placement of 18 large warships in Africa is designed to save on operating costs and allow for these ships to get around the geographic reality of the British Isles. A successor class of 4 fast battleships will begin delivery in 1920 and end in 1923. These are based on the E. Yorck designed but 32 knots to match the expected speed of the G3. These will be the first capital ships designed from the keel up to incorporate the lesson of WW1 in relation to torpedo and air defense. The will be stationed in Africa where the 4 Derfflinger will be moved to the reserve fleet and the older armored cruisers scrapped. In 1924, the first 420mm fast battleship will be delivered to serve in the home fleet. Follow up ships will be delivered in 1926,27, and 29.

Skeleton crews on reserve ships isn´t a problem. Something similar was used pre-WW1.
What about conversion to all oil-fired boilers? Only for new ships? Or will older capital ships be converted too?
Likewise higher elevation for the main guns on existing BBs and BCs?

And eight new BBs between 1920 and 1929.
Makes sense given the budget restrictions. Especially since (more and) new cruisers, destroyers, carriers and U-boats are needed. Plus naval aviation and marines.

Just to show the size of the slow down for readers of this TL. From 1907 to 1914 the German navy commissioned 17 BBs and 5 BCs. 22 capital ships in 8 years. Now post-war it´s 8 capital ships in 10 years.
Given the same (promised) budget as pre-WW1 that frees up quite a bit of desperately needed money.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Detlef

Makes sense to use some pre-dreads as "tenders". They got some storage rooms, workshops, showers and a mess capable of feeding hundreds of sailors. Useful for anything smaller than a cruiser.
And the main guns can be used for coastal defense.

Pretty much. Most are going to be scrapped in Africa due to economic reasons (lower labor and need for scrap metal) and so the guns can be used on the hugely long coast line. Germany will upgrade to 350mm and 380mm for many of its coast line guns.

Which nine ships?
I´d only consider Blücher, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau worth saving for now?
Anything older is too slow and too lightly armed?
The three ACs mentioned above plus either the 5 Deutschland or Braunschweig class pre-dreads would make more sense? Even if 1-2 knots slower they´re at least better armed.
Or the older Nassau class BBs? As fast as the older ACs but much better armed and armored.
Especially since even the older ACs (Prinz Adalbert class, Roon, Yorck) have crews of roughly 600 sailors. The pre-dreads 750, the Nassau class BBs 1000. So the savings in manpower aren´t large.

Frankly the older ACs are even larger death traps than pre-dreads in my opinion.

All 9 AC built. And you are applying military logic to a mostly political decision. Von Schultze is gambling that there will be no war for 5 years. If a war breaks out, the 3 BC are the main defensive forces. And besides, some of the AC are already down there, so they Africans are trained on them. Von Schultze sees a problem with scrapping so many ships before their originally promised life has occurred, so he is just going to keep them down there for now. They will get scrapped on the 20th anniversary of commissioning.

And the BB are kept in Germany to avoid premature scrapping and to keep the public more calm about the huge UK fleet being built. As to the technical issues, the AC are faster. They are only intended to engage lightly defended or undefended merchant shipping, and only then after the 3 months overhaul cycle. The overhauls/upgrades are not going to be done for budget reasons, hence, the assume "three month lead time" for using them. I figure they are running about 1/3 crew, which is mostly African, and mostly the people who were on the AMC. Call it 2000 man command once fully reserved. And he will probably use these ships as training ships to train up the mostly black crews of the newer fast battleships. While the Germans are treating the Africans nice compared to OTL, I am still trying to do the small slights that would show African life is cheaper. Von Schultze is just not that worried about the potential loss of life in a war he does not expect to happen. He has Prince Henry job, so he will slowly turn into a politician.

Did they build a fourth Derfflinger class BC in your TL? In addition to Derfflinger, Lützow and Hindenburg?

Don´t want to reread 56 pages.
Did anything happen to the fifth Kaiser class BB? Sunk?

4th Derfflinger was an error. Fixed.

SMS Kaiser died in Aug 1914 on raid on English coast line.

What about conversion to all oil-fired boilers? Only for new ships? Or will older capital ships be converted too?
Likewise higher elevation for the main guns on existing BBs and BCs?

And eight new BBs between 1920 and 1929.
Makes sense given the budget restrictions. Especially since (more and) new cruisers, destroyers, carriers and U-boats are needed. Plus naval aviation and marines.

Just to show the size of the slow down for readers of this TL. From 1907 to 1914 the German navy commissioned 17 BBs and 5 BCs. 22 capital ships in 8 years. Now post-war it´s 8 capital ships in 10 years.
Given the same (promised) budget as pre-WW1 that frees up quite a bit of desperately needed money.

I was going to do oil fired conversions, but when I looked at everything needing upgrades, it seems wiser to just use the money for new ships.

The raw numbers of capital ships is a bit deceptive. I am going form 15,000 ton ships around 1907 and 28,000 tons ships in 1913 to low 40,000 ton modified EY. And when we go to the 32 knot ships with 420mm guns, we are talking something larger than the USS Iowa class OTL (55,000 tons +). I do see cost savings, but not as much as you see. I am trying to get less bog down in details to speed up writing, but I think I am building more like 12-15 pre war equivalents in terms of cost and resources. The savings will be mostly eaten by a new cruiser fleet and the CVL that need to be built. I am trying to move to a more balanced fleet.

[BlondieBC]

I am working up the TL on the German naval airforce, which will be a huge basis of how the Germans plan to fight the next war. So before I get too far into it, I am requesting feedback.

1) I am looking at 14 squadrons (Gruppen?) with 40-60 planes each. Many will be mixed in types of aircraft, and the deployment will be 2 in East Africa, 3 in Douala, 1 in SWA/Angola, 2 in Nigeria, and 6 in Germany. This would give me about 750 aircraft and 15,000 men. This is just the land base, and does not include the carrier aviation or other planes launched from ships. For most of the African coast line which is immensely long, the basic defense will be a few shore guns, a handful (10-15) planes, few small boats, and no more than a regiment of marines. They will be a coast guard, administrative center, and regime defense force rolled into one organization. Thoughts or comments?

2) Would the Germans likely put the carrier aviation and the land based aviation under one command? I was leaning towards split commands where an admiral controls all the U-boats and surface ships and a Marine General controls the planes, marines, and smaller ships. Think in terms of Pearl Harbor, but make Short in the Marine corp and give him control of everything that is not a ship.

So from the top down, the command structure is Von Schultze on the top commander, with a U-boat, Surface, and air commander below him. They mainly focus on training and doctrine. Below them will be the fleet commanders who would control operations in a war (High Seas Fleet, Baltic Fleet, WA Fleet, EA Fleet). And then since the German land forces in Africa were sent to naval control, there is also an overall African commander for land and sea.

3) What would you call a German naval aviation force? I am guess it is something like LuftWaffeMarine Kaiserich, with some god awful abbreviation. LuWM-K

4) For Germany proper, I am thinking mostly land based planes with just a few seaplanes to do very special tasks such as spotting planes for BB. The mix is probably about 1/3 fighters, 1/3 bombers (dive/guided) and 1/3 torpedo bombers. For better or worse, Zeppelins, U-boats, and destroyers are seen as the scouts for the German coast.

5) For Africa, the coast line is just so large and there is such a low density of infrastructure compared to Germany, I see about 1/2 seaplanes built around the support tenders in reserve. In peace time, they stay near ports, but in wartime, they will be expected to move to where needed. The density of planes is just so horribly low.

6) Any ideas on who is good candidate to command naval airforce. Right now, I am leaning towards the Red Baron heading the Army Luftwaffe. Can't really see anyone else, and then just pulling some land based commander to the naval service. Strangely enough, Goering almost makes sense, but it pains me to have him do well, so I will probably just pull high level commander out of the LW from OTL - Milch, Ostcamp,etc. Figure the chance to be top dog on a smaller service would be tempting to someone.

[BELFAST]

Is the German Navy going to use flying boats?

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by BELFAST

Is the German Navy going to use flying boats?

The plan was to make Africa largely flying boats so they can use various anchorages, rivers and lakes as bases. Germany proper would have few flying boats.

[Deimos]

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

2) Would the Germans likely put the carrier aviation and the land based aviation under one command? I was leaning towards split commands where an admiral controls all the U-boats and surface ships and a Marine General controls the planes, marines, and smaller ships. Think in terms of Pearl Harbor, but make Short in the Marine corp and give him control of everything that is not a ship.

So from the top down, the command structure is Von Schultze on the top commander, with a U-boat, Surface, and air commander below him. They mainly focus on training and doctrine. Below them will be the fleet commanders who would control operations in a war (High Seas Fleet, Baltic Fleet, WA Fleet, EA Fleet). And then since the German land forces in Africa were sent to naval control, there is also an overall African commander for land and sea.

There is a kind of precedent in the German Navy for that. The "Marinekorps" in Flanders had its own air assets. Make the line of reasoning similar to what the Austrians are doing - all the soldiers in Africa are marines - so why having an army air commander? Also, planes in the German colonies would then be multi-purpose thus saving extra costs.

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

3) What would you call a German naval aviation force? I am guess it is something like LuftWaffeMarine Kaiserich, with some god awful abbreviation. LuWM-K

What about the name that was used in our timeline? "Marineflieger-Abteilung" (MFA) If you really want to you could use "Kaiserliche Marineflieger-Abteilung" (KMFA).

The Marinefliegerabteilung had 2 branches:
Seeflieger-Abteilung (I am guessing, this were the seaborne airplanes used for attacking if one can trust the sources cited in this discussion)
Marine-Landflieger-Abteilung (land-based interceptors in coastal areas)

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

6) Any ideas on who is good candidate to command naval airforce. Right now, I am leaning towards the Red Baron heading the Army Luftwaffe. Can't really see anyone else, and then just pulling some land based commander to the naval service. Strangely enough, Goering almost makes sense, but it pains me to have him do well, so I will probably just pull high level commander out of the LW from OTL - Milch, Ostcamp,etc. Figure the chance to be top dog on a smaller service would be tempting to someone.

Heinrich Otto Kranzbühler was the commander of the Naval air assets at the end of the First World War in our timeline. If you are looking for an organic replacement for him, I would suggest Hans Geisler who actually was in the Seefliegerabteilung in our timeline.


I hope that helps. The questions concerning Africa depend a lot on the budget (are planes to be piloted by Africans to lower costs?) and technical feasibility (runways, landing gear, logistics to move pilots and crews around thousands of miles) and I fear I cannot be really helpful in solving them.

[Detlef]

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

I am working up the TL on the German naval airforce, which will be a huge basis of how the Germans plan to fight the next war. So before I get too far into it, I am requesting feedback.

1) I am looking at 14 squadrons (Gruppen?) with 40-60 planes each. Many will be mixed in types of aircraft, and the deployment will be 2 in East Africa, 3 in Douala, 1 in SWA/Angola, 2 in Nigeria, and 6 in Germany. This would give me about 750 aircraft and 15,000 men. This is just the land base, and does not include the carrier aviation or other planes launched from ships. For most of the African coast line which is immensely long, the basic defense will be a few shore guns, a handful (10-15) planes, few small boats, and no more than a regiment of marines. They will be a coast guard, administrative center, and regime defense force rolled into one organization. Thoughts or comments?

You´re in luck.
Some months ago I spent some time researching OTL German WW1 naval air.

40-60 planes would be a "Geschwader" (air wing) consisting of 4-6 squadrons.
10-18 planes would be a "Staffel" (squadron).
(Sometimes they also used a "Gruppe" (group). Smaller than a full wing. Consisting for example of 2-3 squadrons only but with its own staff.)
A wing or (independent) squadron / group however normally would consist of just one type of airplane (fighters, bombers, torpedo bombers, close air support, reconnaissance).
So you might have some large air wings in Germany plus independent groups and squadrons while in Africa you have more independent squadrons or groups to cover all types of airplanes needed.
And a squadron or group in Africa then might send a detachment of 2-4 airplanes to surrounding airbases. Which could give you a mixture of airplanes at the bases you mentioned.
A detachment from fighter squadron X, a detachment from bomber squadron Y ...

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

2) Would the Germans likely put the carrier aviation and the land based aviation under one command? I was leaning towards split commands where an admiral controls all the U-boats and surface ships and a Marine General controls the planes, marines, and smaller ships. Think in terms of Pearl Harbor, but make Short in the Marine corp and give him control of everything that is not a ship.

Going from OTL they wouldn´t.
On top was the "Marine-Flieger-Abteilung" (naval air branch) founded in 1913 consisting of:

• the "Marine-See-Flieger-Abteilung" (naval sea aviation branch) with regional commands (First "See-Flieger-Abteilung" responsible for the North Sea, Second "See-Flieger-Abteilung" responsible for the Baltic Sea in OTL). Each "See-Flieger-Abteilung" (naval sea aviation district) commanded fighter, bomber, torpedo bomber and reconnaissance sea plane squadrons. The "Marine-See-Flieger-Abteiling" was also in command of the existing three seaplane carriers so I´d think they would get command of carrier airplanes too.
• the "Marine-Feld-Flieger-Abteilung" (naval land aviation branch). Land based fighter and reconnaissance squadrons supporting the Marine corps Flanders. I can see them becoming part of the German Marine Corps. With some close air support squadrons added.

Even when the naval sea aviation branch switches over to land based aircraft I can´t quite see them becoming part of the Marines.
Basically they probably evolve somewhat like the US naval aviation and Marine Corps aviation. So you might end up with "Marine-See-Flieger" (naval aviation) and "Marine-Feld-Flieger" (Marine corps aviation).

An admiral controlling the U-boats, surface ships (even the smaller ones) and naval aviation. And a Marine general controlling Marines and Marine Corps aviation.

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

So from the top down, the command structure is Von Schultze on the top commander, with a U-boat, Surface, and air commander below him. They mainly focus on training and doctrine. Below them will be the fleet commanders who would control operations in a war (High Seas Fleet, Baltic Fleet, WA Fleet, EA Fleet). And then since the German land forces in Africa were sent to naval control, there is also an overall African commander for land and sea.

How do the Marines fit in?
Fourth independent branch of the German armed forces? Or still formally part of the navy?
In OTL the "Seebattalione" - although nominally under the command of the naval station Baltic Sea in Kiel - were in reality almost an independent branch with their own inspectorate. With the added responsibilities here (and the huge enlargement) I can see them becoming the fourth branch of the armed forces.
Army, navy, air force and Marine Corps.
Ludwig von Schöder might become the first commander of the new independent Marine Corps?

By the way, how to translate Marines into German? The "Seebattalione" don´t fit. The correct translation would be "Marineinfanterie" (naval infantry).

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

3) What would you call a German naval aviation force? I am guess it is something like LuftWaffeMarine Kaiserich, with some god awful abbreviation. LuWM-K

See above.
"Marine-Flieger-Abteilung (MFA), maybe later on only "Marine-See-Flieger" for naval aviation.
Once the transfer of the "Marine-Feld-Flieger" to the Marine Corps has happened.
You might then have for example a "MFJasta 2" (Marine-Feld-Jagdstaffel 2). Translates as Marine Corps fighter squadron 2.
While the navy uses "MSJasta 5". Naval aviation fighter squadron 5.
(Although in time you might get rid of the first letter "M". "S" for sea and "F" for field / ground / earth might be enough.)
And the air force stays with the simple "Jasta 1". Fighter squadron 1.

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

4) For Germany proper, I am thinking mostly land based planes with just a few seaplanes to do very special tasks such as spotting planes for BB. The mix is probably about 1/3 fighters, 1/3 bombers (dive/guided) and 1/3 torpedo bombers. For better or worse, Zeppelins, U-boats, and destroyers are seen as the scouts for the German coast.

Well, the German naval aviation used seaplanes (in German) quite extensively in OTL WW1. Switching over to land based aircraft will take some time.
(That link also has a picture of torpedo boat V 10 with its experimental seaplane carried on board.)
And seaplanes might still be useful for reconnaissance and search and rescue.

I´m also not quite sure about dive bombers at this time.
Diving is pretty stressful on the airframe. Not sure if late 1910s / early 1020s airplanes are really suitable for that?

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

5) For Africa, the coast line is just so large and there is such a low density of infrastructure compared to Germany, I see about 1/2 seaplanes built around the support tenders in reserve. In peace time, they stay near ports, but in wartime, they will be expected to move to where needed. The density of planes is just so horribly low.

Not sure about that for the next few years.
As mentioned above German naval aviation in OTL WW1 used seaplanes extensively.
Wouldn´t it make sense to send quite a few of them to Africa?
After all they don´t need a grassy flat runway. A larger lake, river or protected coastal strip would be enough for them.
With the lack of infrastructure in Africa seaplanes might be a good choice there? Just a smaller coastal barge or river barge could transport supplies for seaplanes after all.

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

6) Any ideas on who is good candidate to command naval airforce. Right now, I am leaning towards the Red Baron heading the Army Luftwaffe. Can't really see anyone else, and then just pulling some land based commander to the naval service. Strangely enough, Goering almost makes sense, but it pains me to have him do well, so I will probably just pull high level commander out of the LW from OTL - Milch, Ostcamp,etc. Figure the chance to be top dog on a smaller service would be tempting to someone.

Gotthard Sachsenberg might be a good choice for the "Marine-Feld-Flieger". The possible German Marine Corps aviation branch.
(First commander of a German naval aviation air wing while Theo Osterkamp was a squadron leader.)
Friedrich Christiansen might be the first overall commander of the "Marine-See-Flieger" since he´s a bit older than Osterkamp. Naval aviation. With Theo Osterkamp as commander of the naval fighter aviation branch for now. And then taking over from Christiansen.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by Deimos

There is a kind of precedent in the German Navy for that. The "Marinekorps" in Flanders had its own air assets. Make the line of reasoning similar to what the Austrians are doing - all the soldiers in Africa are marines - so why having an army air commander? Also, planes in the German colonies would then be multi-purpose thus saving extra costs.
What about the name that was used in our timeline? "Marineflieger-Abteilung" (MFA) If you really want to you could use "Kaiserliche Marineflieger-Abteilung" (KMFA).

The Marinefliegerabteilung had 2 branches:
Seeflieger-Abteilung (I am guessing, this were the seaborne airplanes used for attacking if one can trust the sources cited in this discussion)
Marine-Landflieger-Abteilung (land-based interceptors in coastal areas)

Heinrich Otto Kranzbühler was the commander of the Naval air assets at the end of the First World War in our timeline. If you are looking for an organic replacement for him, I would suggest Hans Geisler who actually was in the Seefliegerabteilung in our timeline.

I hope that helps. The questions concerning Africa depend a lot on the budget (are planes to be piloted by Africans to lower costs?) and technical feasibility (runways, landing gear, logistics to move pilots and crews around thousands of miles) and I fear I cannot be really helpful in solving them.

Thanks it helps a lot. I will go with KFMA and Hans Geisler. It may not be important, but i times it helps to have personalities to lookup. The reason to move African assets to the navy is a political one. I like solutions that solve one problem but tend to cause issues in future. Mainly it was a way to avoid having to have blacks hold officer ranks in the German Army. It also relates to why the Germans are going back to the square division. The Prussian nobility has lost power in the Prussian parliament, but they are trying hard to preserve their officer perks in the German (Prussian) army. It also lays the basis for a MittelAfrika versus Germany war if I want to go that way since totally separate commands for the African forces from the German forces at below the Kaiser level means the seeds of a national identity have been sown. It could easily be beyond how long I take the TL, but Germany losing control of its colony is quite possible at some point in time. Basically all the issues of the UK in India with a delay of a generation or two.

Yes, I figure the cost in Africa run 10% to 30% of the cost of stuff in Germany. Even with the substantial cut to dreadnought production, I need additional cost savings in Africa to pay for a credible navy. The sailors are paid a lot less, but I figure even a big reduction to German pay levels means a very nice life style in Africa. And since there is no practical way to get from Germany to MittelAfrika in a war with the UK, we have to duplicated many industries twice. The desperate measure FM Zimmermann took to win in Africa will become the infrastructure base in Africa. Outside of a few things like capital ships, U-boats and Zeppelins, Africa will have to produce its own armaments. And to me this makes technological sense because Africa is a different beast than Germany. Much, much harder on equipment. So on the airforce, Africa will live with lower performance but more rugged planes and build all the sea planes (flying boats) with a sprinkling of higher performance planes from Germany. Germany will be the reverse with German built planes with a few flying boats for special uses. Germany will be using improved runways almost exclusively. Africa will use dirt strips and anchorages outside of some improved strips near Douala. Africa is just too big to build the need number of quality runways. So this means largely different types of planes with perhaps some overlapping things like engines and torpedoes.

On the Naval portion, Africa will be expected to build its own cruisers and smaller ships and to be able to do routine repairs to capital ships. Ammunition will be produced in Africa and German except for the largest calibers since they larger ammo can be stockpiled. It is taking me a lot of time to build the German Navy since I have no easy baseline to copy. Nations like the USA or Japan are easy to handle. OTL plus some minor changes. Not so with Germany and to a lesser extent the UK.

[Deimos]

Detlef's post is far more informative than mine, so you should probably continue using the information he provides.
However, the namechange to Kaiserliche Marineflieger-Abteilung could still be possible. William II will probably even have some love for the two unexpected bastard children (U-boats and planes) of his beloved Kaiserliche Marine. It also binds the aviators to the Emperor making them (in his mind) honour-bound to follow him (such things would additionally be of ulterior political use in Africa).

One question, though, relating to an earlier topic.

Originally Posted by BlondieBC

Austro Hungarians: [...]
Main fleet (7): Radetzky X 2, Tegetthoff Class X4

Where is the seventh ship or was that simply a typo?


Also, fun fact - the Germany navy was the first to employ all-metal fighter planes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_D.I