Mowque Reads TL-191 - Page 6

Mr.J · #**101** October 24th, 2012, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfpaw

Yeah, but he wasn't. Eva wasn't his first mistress, he mentioned her (though not by name) in his final testament and they died husband and wife. And people often do not realize that Hitler was a sex symbol in the Third Reich thanks to both propaganda and fascism's general cultishness.

Also, Eva was pretty much just a young mistress, and that's it. Lulu was a cobwebbed secretary that Featherston has a bit of affection for. This guy is on a 10 book dry spell; you don't find this strange?

Remember how in Primary Colors, one of the characters defending Clinton says "Well, Hitler didn't have any sex scandals and look at him!"?

It's not true that Hitler was sexless, but it's kind of the modern US popular myth, that he had a weird affection for Eva Braun that wasn't very sexually charged but the rest was sublimated to power. Turtledove is trying to play on popular perceptions and pop-culture historiography, so he has Featherston be like the Hitler of popular myth, with a Southern flavor.

mowque · #**102** October 25th, 2012, 01:06 AM

This short segment introduces a fan favorite, old Abner Dowling. Probably THE longest suffering man in the entire series full of war, rape and revolution. Only because he has to deal with George Custer for half of it. But in this short opener, he doesn't do much, and mostly just sighs with broad shoulders (should I squeeze more fat jokes in?...get it?).

As happens quite often, one of Turtledove's POV character is shown up by a side character. That said, Custer isn't a 'side' anything. I have to say, I like the old codger. He is garrulous, bitter, egotistical, frightfully out of touch yet full of that convincing cunning you often find in successful men desperate to hold onto to power. His tirade against Canada and TR about events 4 years ago is a classic rant. Since Custer died so young, and the public doesn't know much about him, Harry has a free hand with the character whikle also getting history points.

With this freedom he creates this vainglorious, pompous old blowhard. Of course, what he stands for is all the 'donkeys who led lions' in OTL WWI. Haig, I think, is the most famous. He is the American version of all that was wrong with WWI leadership (at least in popular perception). Out of date, removed from all action, and dreadfully remote from original thought. It is Dowling's Sisyphean task to try and corral this walking (barely) disaster, and watch his fritter away thousands of brave young men. In a way it is horrifically dark and funny. Here though, all we get is Custer is going to the 'front', which we guess will really mean dozens of miles away from the actual guns. Dowling says war has changed and he won't be able to rally troops in this day and age, but frankly I have a hard time imaging any army rallied by this broken down old war horse.

Do you get the vibe I dislike Custer? I'll try to become more apparent, if only to make Dowling feel good...

Whanztastic · #**103** October 25th, 2012, 01:51 AM

I thoroughly disliked but simultaneously enjoyed Custer.

Will you be taking a pause on this great idea for the wedding?

Has the bride-to-be read the series? If so, maybe she can give some guest spots. If not, maybe it is time.

mowque · #**104** October 25th, 2012, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whanztastic

I thoroughly disliked but simultaneously enjoyed Custer.

Will you be taking a pause on this great idea for the wedding?

Has the bride-to-be read the series? If so, maybe she can give some guest spots. If not, maybe it is time.

I'll get some posts up tomorrow, and then I'll be taking a few days off. I'll be back by Monday.

And no, she hasn't read it. She has zero interest in AH.

mowque · #**105** October 25th, 2012, 02:23 AM

Stephen Ramsay: Remember him? I sure didn't. But Turtledove loves him some Western cavalry men (read WorldWar, you get a Ramsay look-alike) so we get one, double-barrled here.

The scene, Sequoyah (Oklahoma never gets another name, not even in MY TL). War is upon us and way out here in the middle of nowhere, war is being fought in a very mobile, loose environment. Somewhat reminiscent of the Eastern Front in OTL, the place is a tapestry of natives, federal and confederate cavalry men blowing stuff up. We see a little of that here as Ramsay dynamites some stuff, while he rides around raising hell.

But the main thrust is the 'modern war' theme. While Ramsay likes to pretend he is something out of the War of Secession, the Yankees aren't playing ball. War has changed a bit in the last half a century, and machine guns and the combustion motors are a big part of it. Even way out here, some new technology percolates down. One single armored car brings Ramsay's little troop to their knees, and it is only a lucky break that the car breaks down.

After that Stephen does a ...war crime? I don't know the law but shooting the prisoners seems a bit in cold-blood. Granted this is war, but it is a bit much. But Ra,say, whipped up in fervor of a 'good cause' is taken with the honor and glory of war. The Yankees have cheated and his eyes and therefore don't get to use the rules at all. In essence he shoots a bunch of unarmed, surrendered men. Not pretty.

But war rarely is.

Whanztastic · #**106** October 25th, 2012, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowque

I'll get some posts up tomorrow, and then I'll be taking a few days off. I'll be back by Monday.

And no, she hasn't read it. She has zero interest in AH.

I know that feel, as noted in my signature, narrated by Thande.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowque

Stephen Ramsay: Remember him? I sure didn't. But Turtledove loves him some Western cavalry men (read WorldWar, you get a Ramsay look-alike) so we get one, double-barrled here.

Who? *researches* Ah, that explains it.

Trotsky · #**107** October 25th, 2012, 02:46 AM

Stephen Ramsay, the only HT POV whose death doesn't even get a period at the end.

Mr.J · #**108** October 25th, 2012, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowque

After that Stephen does a ...war crime? I don't know the law but shooting the prisoners seems a bit in cold-blood. Granted this is war, but it is a bit much. But Ra,say, whipped up in fervor of a 'good cause' is taken with the honor and glory of war. The Yankees have cheated and his eyes and therefore don't get to use the rules at all. In essence he shoots a bunch of unarmed, surrendered men. Not pretty.

Gets worse as the war goes on. Did the US ever do the "take and shoot X hostages for any wounded/dead soldier" thing they do in Great War II in OTL? I associate it pretty strongly with Nazi Germany, but I have a vague idea the Germans did it to some extent in Belgium in WWI - it's weird how nonchalantly Turtledove introduces it though. Nobody really has a problem with it except some soldiers who don't like shooting civillians in cold blood

.

Whanztastic · #**109** October 25th, 2012, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whanztastic

I know that feel, as noted in my signature, narrated by Thande.

To back that up...

Quote:

Originally Posted by My GF

You're all a bunch of weirdos.

Trotsky · #**110** October 25th, 2012, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.J

Gets worse as the war goes on. Did the US ever do the "take and shoot X hostages for any wounded/dead soldier" thing they do in Great War II in OTL? I associate it pretty strongly with Nazi Germany, but I have a vague idea the Germans did it to some extent in Belgium in WWI - it's weird how nonchalantly Turtledove introduces it though. Nobody really has a problem with it except some soldiers who don't like shooting civillians in cold blood

.

It was in our books for Germany under Occupation.

Clandango · #**111** October 25th, 2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.J

Remember how in Primary Colors, one of the characters defending Clinton says "Well, Hitler didn't have any sex scandals and look at him!"?

It's not true that Hitler was sexless, but it's kind of the modern US popular myth, that he had a weird affection for Eva Braun that wasn't very sexually charged but the rest was sublimated to power. Turtledove is trying to play on popular perceptions and pop-culture historiography, so he has Featherston be like the Hitler of popular myth, with a Southern flavor.

No one else remembers him living with his niece, drawing nude pictures of her, and having some problems when she died under mysterious circumstances?

Clandango · #**112** October 25th, 2012, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowque

Do you get the vibe I dislike Custer? I'll try to become more apparent, if only to make Dowling feel good...

Villains and antagonists are some of my favorite characters in books, though mostly if there is some underlying patheticness to them. He fits.

CT23 · #**113** October 25th, 2012, 08:32 AM

To be fair to Custer, at least one of his ideas was proven right by the end of the first Great War.

cortz#9 · #**114** October 25th, 2012, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT23

To be fair to Custer, at least one of his ideas was proven right by the end of the first Great War.

But didn't Morrel get most of the credit for that?

Thande · #**115** October 25th, 2012, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowque

After that Stephen does a ...war crime? I don't know the law but shooting the prisoners seems a bit in cold-blood. Granted this is war, but it is a bit much. But Ra,say, whipped up in fervor of a 'good cause' is taken with the honor and glory of war. The Yankees have cheated and his eyes and therefore don't get to use the rules at all. In essence he shoots a bunch of unarmed, surrendered men. Not pretty.

But war rarely is.

I believe it's based on some stuff from actual WW1, because there was no precedent under the Geneva Convention for the use of weapons like machine guns and poison gas, so soldiers sometimes ended up arbitrarily deciding themselves that using such weapons themselves constituted war crimes and thus anyone using them gave up the rights of war and could be shot after surrendering, like spies.

cortz#9 · #**116** October 25th, 2012, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thande

I believe it's based on some stuff from actual WW1, because there was no precedent under the Geneva Convention for the use of weapons like machine guns and poison gas, so soldiers sometimes ended up arbitrarily deciding themselves that using such weapons themselves constituted war crimes and thus anyone using them gave up the rights of war and could be shot after surrendering, like spies.

I remember reading somewhere that it was just about impossible for German machine gunners to surrender. Don't know if it was true but it seems likely.

mowque · #**117** October 25th, 2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cortz#9

I remember reading somewhere that it was just about impossible for German machine gunners to surrender. Don't know if it was true but it seems likely.

Turtledove makes the same note later on.

mrmandias · #**118** October 25th, 2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mowque

“As You Know, Bob” was a concept coined by Ian (yes, THAT Ian) for when characters just launch off into long soliloquies about obvious things that everyone in-universe knows but the reader may not.

Ian would be the first to tell you that he didn't invent this concept, its been around for awhile among science fiction writers.