Spain and Turkey enter WWII

[JRScott]

Originally Posted by sparky42

I would think that if there was an attempt by the Spanish to try taking the Rock that perhaps the English would kick lose some units to counter them and perhaps take the Spanish colonies instead.

Britain's to spread out, to do that means to weaken their defenses around Britain itself, or in the Pacific which they can't afford to do.

[deh74]

Originally Posted by sparky42

I would think that if there was an attempt by the Spanish to try taking the Rock that perhaps the English would kick lose some units to counter them and perhaps take the Spanish colonies instead.

I don't mean the rock persay but the spaniards could theoretically control the area around it as someone mentioned they had a fairly large subwarine force, so they wouldn't need to take the rock to establish control over the straits, plus the spaniards at this time controlled the lad on both sides of the british held territory. i could also see the spaniards annexing portugal like germany did to austria but it would be harder considering the language barrier, so they may just invade portugal. also they could conquer morocco from france if they joined the axis before france fell.

[deh74]

Originally Posted by JRScott

I think you mean over, and yep that's the key with Spain's entry, effectively cuts off Gibraltar which has huge strategic importance, without it the war in Africa, Italy etc would not have gone anywhere near as good.

The other main value strategically is their sub fleet, means more subs to harass convoys and disrupt allied movements.

However D-Day won't be in France in this scenario, if it comes my bet would be it would be in the far less fortified Spain mainly due to the fact you need Gibraltar back.

It's going to draw the war out in Europe for sure, which means those first atomic bombs might not hit Japan, but might hit Germany.

no that means that i wouldn't be born as i'm from germany!!!!

[sparky42]

Originally Posted by JRScott

I think you mean over, and yep that's the key with Spain's entry, effectively cuts off Gibraltar which has huge strategic importance, without it the war in Africa, Italy etc would not have gone anywhere near as good.

The other main value strategically is their sub fleet, means more subs to harass convoys and disrupt allied movements.

However D-Day won't be in France in this scenario, if it comes my bet would be it would be in the far less fortified Spain mainly due to the fact you need Gibraltar back.

It's going to draw the war out in Europe for sure, which means those first atomic bombs might not hit Japan, but might hit Germany.

As has been suggested before (I think it was in this thread), the Allies would retaliate by taking the Canaries at the very least. There's also the fact that I still think that the UK would release forces to aggressively defend Gibraltar if need be.

As to subs the Spanish had what about a dozen subs, most built in the early 30's how effective would they be to adding to the situation, docks for supporting the German boats might be more useful.

As for invading through Spain given the Mountain barrier into France I would doubt this would be the first choice, that would create a strong defensive barrier that could be heavily fortified.

[sparky42]

Originally Posted by JRScott

Britain's to spread out, to do that means to weaken their defenses around Britain itself, or in the Pacific which they can't afford to do.

It depends on the time of this conversion, if it's 1940 or up to December 41 then the UK wouldn't be moving on the Pacific. And given the PR value of the Rock then I would think that they would at least try to fight for it.

If it's after 42 then you have the US forces that could come to support the situation.

Either way I don't see how Spain manages to greatly affect the situation.

[sparky42]

Originally Posted by deh74

I don't mean the rock persay but the spaniards could theoretically control the area around it as someone mentioned they had a fairly large subwarine force, so they wouldn't need to take the rock to establish control over the straits, plus the spaniards at this time controlled the lad on both sides of the british held territory. i could also see the spaniards annexing portugal like germany did to austria but it would be harder considering the language barrier, so they may just invade portugal. also they could conquer morocco from france if they joined the axis before france fell.

I think you are vastly over stretching the Spanish forces and their capabilities, like I said the dozen subs are old hulls, given the civil war what was there operational readiness state by 1940?

Give the RN I would think that they would attack the Spanish colonies if they came in rather then let them expand.

[deh74]

[QUOTE=sparky42;6791067]It depends on the time of this conversion, if it's 1940 or up to December 41 then the UK wouldn't be moving on the Pacific. And given the PR value of the Rock then I would think that they would at least try to fight for it.

If it's after 42 then you have the US forces that could come to support the situation.

Either way I don't see how Spain manages to greatly affect the situation.[/QUOTE/] the spanish joining the axis would give the axis control of the western med, giving nazi germany a port near gibraltar from which to attack shipping, and blocking ships coming from britains eastern colonies like india which contribute a large amount of money and troops to GB in WW2(theres a reason that India was "the crown jewel of the british empire") so this could weaken ritain to a point that operation sealion could have been successful allowing the axis(including japan) to concentrate their efforts on Russia ending the war before the united states even gets involved. of course if the US sees the last refuge of democracy in europe(GB) falling to facism that they would get involved.

[sparky42]

Originally Posted by deh74

the spanish joining the axis would give the axis control of the western med, giving nazi germany a port near gibraltar from which to attack shipping, and blocking ships coming from britains eastern colonies like india which contribute a large amount of money and troops to GB in WW2(theres a reason that India was "the crown jewel of the british empire") so this could weaken ritain to a point that operation sealion could have been successful allowing the axis(including japan) to concentrate their efforts on Russia ending the war before the united states even gets involved. of course if the US sees the last refuge of democracy in europe(GB) falling to facism that they would get involved.

The British didn't send the majority of convoys through the Med during the period anyway, any further advance positions they might get wouldn't change this. The only convoys that were sent through the Med were ones of vital importance like the Malta convoys. The troops convoys and such already went the long way around Africa to avoid the chances of damage or loss in the Med.

Yes it would bring German forces closer to Gibraltar but that means that the British might attack them as well. It will come down to many factors but I think it just means that German has to spend more resources supporting a marginal ally.

As to somehow the Spanish being involved allowing for the sea mammal to happen just no, they wouldn't have changed the forces in any meaningful way.

[Greyfang]

Originally Posted by sparky42

How does that work?

Spain was just out of a heavy Civil war with infrastructural damage, and a far weaker industrial base, navy, airforce.

How do you think that they could in any way bring more to the War than Italy?

China came out of a heavy civil war, occupation, and genocide and still influenced the Korean war to a great extant. The Spanish were very experienced, more so than the Italians. Their disadvantages would, of course, be a problem, but I don't expect them to be useless.

[deh74]

Originally Posted by Greyfang

China came out of a heavy civil war, occupation, and genocide and still influenced the Korean war to a great extant. The Spanish were very experienced, more so than the Italians. Their disadvantages would, of course, be a problem, but I don't expect them to be useless.

well what exactly do you think the spanish could do, i see them blocking off the med maybe, as well as taking morocco and portugal

[sparky42]

Originally Posted by Greyfang

China came out of a heavy civil war, occupation, and genocide and still influenced the Korean war to a great extant. The Spanish were very experienced, more so than the Italians. Their disadvantages would, of course, be a problem, but I don't expect them to be useless.

How do they have more experience of modern war than Italy?

How many Spanish fighters/ bombers did they produce compared to Italy? How many current generation warships did they have? How many armoured vehicles did they have? The Italian fleet out numbered the Spanish fleet by a wide margin across the whole rang of types.

China and Spain are completely different situations and can't be used to suggest that Spain would be able to fight above the Italian forces. I think you are vastly over stating the military capabilities of the Spanish forces that don't seem to have any connection to the historic forces

[Greyfang]

Originally Posted by sparky42

How do they have more experience of modern war than Italy?

How many Spanish fighters/ bombers did they produce compared to Italy? How many current generation warships did they have? How many armoured vehicles did they have? The Italian fleet out numbered the Spanish fleet by a wide margin across the whole rang of types.

China and Spain are completely different situations and can't be used to suggest that Spain would be able to fight above the Italian forces. I think you are vastly over stating the military capabilities of the Spanish forces that don't seem to have any connection to the historic forces

Last time I checked, experience does not mean capability. You're suggesting that the lack of sufficient technology in Spain is a sign of how inexperienced they are? Inexperienced in producing an armoured force, maybe, but very experienced in actual fighting. The quality of the Spanish soldier is certainly more valuable than the quantity of the Italian soldier backed by Italian armour. I recognize that in order for Spain to not be a completely useless ally, they must have a significant size of tanks, ships, aeroplanes, etc, but with what they have and any other loans given to them by the Axis, they may be an impressive fighting force.

[sparky42]

Originally Posted by Greyfang

Last time I checked, experience does not mean capability. You're suggesting that the lack of sufficient technology in Spain is a sign of how inexperienced they are? Inexperienced in producing an armoured force, maybe, but very experienced in actual fighting. The quality of the Spanish soldier is certainly more valuable than the quantity of the Italian soldier backed by Italian armour. I recognize that in order for Spain to not be a completely useless ally, they must have a significant size of tanks, ships, aeroplanes, etc, but with what they have and any other loans given to them by the Axis, they may be an impressive fighting force.

I presume by experience you mean that which they generated from the Civil war? I would question how well that experience would transition to fighting against the British forces? How many large scale tank battles were fought by Spanish rather than international forces? How much combat experience was there within the Spanish Air Force fighting against modern generation aircraft, same question for the Navy?

How much would Germany be in position to "give" to Spain to bring them up to modern tech standards, how much would need to be invested in upgrading their support capabilities to sustain them? What, if any, naval assets would go towards strengthening the Spanish and how would that affect the Atlantic battle? If Luftwaffe planes were withdrawn from France to support Spain how would that affect British Home defences?

As I've said if it's before 42 then the British aren't as extended and might look at taking on the Spanish as a chance for a "weak underbelly" attack, though again I think the Pyrenees would stop the advance at best. Also they would have to fight to hold Gibraltar at least because of the political cost for losing it. They could take the Canaries and I think at least launch some attempts on the Spanish colonies if they though there was a chance.

If it's 42 and after I don't see Spain throwing themselves into a war they couldn't win.

[deh74]

Originally Posted by Greyfang

Last time I checked, experience does not mean capability. You're suggesting that the lack of sufficient technology in Spain is a sign of how inexperienced they are? Inexperienced in producing an armoured force, maybe, but very experienced in actual fighting. The quality of the Spanish soldier is certainly more valuable than the quantity of the Italian soldier backed by Italian armour. I recognize that in order for Spain to not be a completely useless ally, they must have a significant size of tanks, ships, aeroplanes, etc, but with what they have and any other loans given to them by the Axis, they may be an impressive fighting force.

yes but that means that axis armor would be more spread out since spain would be using it as well against gibraltar and morroco

[sparky42]

Originally Posted by deh74

yes but that means that axis armor would be more spread out since spain would be using it as well against gibraltar and morroco

Which is one of my points, Germany would have to invest a fair amount of equipment, supplies and support into Spain to allow them to take Gibraltar and defend themselves against the British counter actions. Which impacts on their deployments and operations.

For example would they try and use the German Airborne forces against Gib, what would be their losses, how would that impact Crete is just one thing. I've already mentioned the potential knock ons from shifting Luftwaffe Assets.

In OTL Franco didn't go for this, what are you suggesting would change his mind in the situation?

[deh74]

is it possible that at some point turkey and argentina could have joined the axis?

[hairysamarian]

Originally Posted by Greyfang

Well....yes, that's basically it. I'm more interested in how the two countries could effect World War II at the time they join in, not their incentives to actually join it.

But their effect depends on what they're trying to gain once they've entered, and that speaks to their incentives for joining. The effect of a country joining the war just for an easy slice of victory pie might be different from that of a country seeking a position of real power in the post-war world, for example. So it's fair for posters to expect a more concrete pod, I think.

[deh74]

Originally Posted by sparky42

Which is one of my points, Germany would have to invest a fair amount of equipment, supplies and support into Spain to allow them to take Gibraltar and defend themselves against the British counter actions. Which impacts on their deployments and operations.

For example would they try and use the German Airborne forces against Gib, what would be their losses, how would that impact Crete is just one thing. I've already mentioned the potential knock ons from shifting Luftwaffe Assets.

In OTL Franco didn't go for this, what are you suggesting would change his mind in the situation?

i'm not suggesting this i'm suggesting that spain could cut off gibraltar on its own and hold it long enough for the rest of the axis to cement their control over the remaining allied areas in the med. like egypt, greece, turkey.

[sparky42]

Originally Posted by hairysamarian

But their effect depends on what they're trying to gain once they've entered, and that speaks to their incentives for joining. The effect of a country joining the war just for an easy slice of victory pie might be different from that of a country seeking a position of real power in the post-war world, for example. So it's fair for posters to expect a more concrete pod, I think.

An example of that might be the number of nations that joined the Allies after it became clear that they were going to be the victors.

What would Spain and Turkey hope to gain for taking the risk of war with the UK and later the US? Turkey would surely remember the fate of the Ottomans for getting involved in the First World War.

[deh74]

Originally Posted by sparky42

An example of that might be the number of nations that joined the Allies after it became clear that they were going to be the victors.

What would Spain and Turkey hope to gain for taking the risk of war with the UK and later the US? Turkey would surely remember the fate of the Ottomans for getting involved in the First World War.

this could also mean that they could have entered with the axis because they want revenge and to regain their empire.