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#101
October 16th, 2012, 02:16 PM
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So did Saturn never come into being? (I do hope the spaceframe and polymer bodyside panels were adopted- and kept!)
It's likely that Geo never formed, too.
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#102
October 16th, 2012, 03:49 PM
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#103
October 16th, 2012, 04:24 PM
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Clarkson is enough of an ass at times to hate on cars that don't suck, and I do grant that many of the cars from America won't work as well in the UK, but I figure as an overall figure he has far fewer legitimate gripes to whine about. Quote:
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It's not exactly the Brock Yates school - he's always been one for more simplicity and less duplication in lineups, and here that doesn't matter because Detroit's market share is still very large.Quote:
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#104
October 16th, 2012, 09:30 PM
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Part 9 - For Those That Know The Score....
The 21st Century dawned with a new world opening in front of everyone. 2000 saw President Bill Clinton re-elected, though in a very, very tight race against Arizona Senator John McCain and famed Army General Colin Powell, with McCain showing that the Republicans' once-clear disdain for union voters was as dead as the dodo bird, even to the point that the UAW seriously wavered between endorsing Clinton or McCain. The dot-com boom and America's finances, which had been deep in surplus zone for all of the 1990s (peaking in 1998 with a $372 Billion federal government surplus) was leading to calls for major expansions of America's infrastructure as well as tax decreases - and in the election of 2000, this tax cuts vs. public infrastructure debate dominated much of the election, with the Republicans favoring the tax cut option and Clinton calling for the money to put towards better public infrastructure, calling it "essential to assure America's prosperity." It was also obvious by this point that Detroit was one of the primary drivers of this prosperity. General Motors was the second-largest American exporter by dollar value (only Boeing was ahead), and the Rust Belt was back to humming along nicely - and the center of that was Detroit, whose automotive businesses had redeemed themselves, and new industries located in the Detroit area, along with growing white-collar businesses and a vibrant culture scene, was proving to be one of the better cities of the Midwest, assuming of course that one could handle the bitter cold of Detroit winters. The confidence of the time was such that GM in 1996 bought the Detroit Renaissance Center, built in 1977, and began a huge renovation of it, which was completed in 2002 at a cost of $475 million. That same year, when Sears moved out of its signature building in downtown Chicago - America's tallest commercial building - American Motors made an offer to buy the building from Sears and its co-owners in AEW Capital Management. The deal was done in May 1997, and on July 4, 1997, the Sears Tower became the American Motors Tower, and AMC moved its headquarters and offices from its old home in Kenosha, Wisconsin, to Chicago in 1997 and 1998. (Their engineering staff mostly stayed in Kenosha, though.) The building purchase, said to cost AMC $750 million, was a huge deal, and the subsequent moving in of several other companies helped the landmark property become a major deal indeed. The dot-com boom, however, came to a major halt during 2000, causing a major slump in the electronics industry - a slump that lasted through 2000 and 2001, and resulting in some major consolidations and several big corporate failures. The slowdown in this part of the economy did, however, allow savvy investors at the bottom of the slump to buy up some big companies for small pieces - and there was no shortage of these in Detroit or among its subsidiaries. The biggest grab was Visteon's purchase of a huge chunk of then-bankrupt MCI Worldcom in 2003, integrating it into Visteon as Visteon mobile communications. The prize was MCI's mobile communications technology, which Visteon and Ford wanted to integrate into future cars by the automaker, aiming to rival GM's OnStar service. The Visteon Sync system began appearing on Ford cars in 2004, and spread across the lineup by 2006. But the biggest event of this era came on the morning on September 11, 2001, in New York City. The 9/11 attacks were an event which stunned the whole world and infuriated the majority of it in equal measures. Taking the lives of nearly 3000 people in New York, Washington and Shanksville, Pennsylvania, it caused an explosion of every emotion imaginable, and Detroit was not immune to it by any stretch. The airspace of the United States was closed suddenly as a result of the attacks, and stayed closed for six days, and two amazing events happened to this. The first was Operation Yellow Ribbon in Canada, where over 250 commercial flights headed for the United States were diverted to Canadian airports - in the most amazing case of this, the tiny town of Gander in Newfoundland took in 39 flights, with 6,600 passengers, in a town with a population of less than 10,000. The work of the Canadians amazed and impressed their sudden visitors, who in places like Gander opened their homes and their hearts to them. One of these people was GM's Vice-President, Rick Wagoner, whose Northwest flight was diverted to Gander, and where him, his wife and two daughters stayed with a local family for three days until the flight could continue to Detroit. Wagoner never forgot this - he made a point when he got to Detroit of explaining just what had happened, where he had been and the generosity and warmness of the people in the tiny town in Newfoundland. Wagoner, who became GM President in 2003, made a major donation to the building a monument to the event in Gander and was on hand when a year later, Canada's Prime Minister and others were there to state how proud they were of the response. "One year ago, a horrible day forced myself and more than six thousand others to land in this small town, and when we did, the people here did everything they could for us and asked for nothing in return. I never would have imagined it possible had I not experienced it, and I will say this right now - I have not forgotten the people of Gander, and will not forget the people of Gander. It was a week where a small town in Newfoundland saw the world come to it, and they opened their hearts to those who needed the help. It was the best of humanity at a horrible time for us all, and I think I can say on behalf of all of my countrymen, thank you. Thank you to all of you who helped us." -- GM Vice-President Rick Wagoner, speaking in Gander, Newfoundland, on September 11, 2002 The shutdown of American airspace also caused a sudden and enormous demand for train travel, as people fought to keep on doing the travel that their lives demanded. Amtrak rose to the challenge, dragging everything they had in storage out during the day and asking for help from freight railroads, commuter rail agencies and anyone else who could help. In keeping with the spirit of the times, nearly everyone who could respond did. Freight railroads sent extra locomotives for Amtrak's usage, Ontario's GO Transit sent five entire trains of cars for Amtrak to use and numerous other agencies came to help. Union Pacific went so far as to send its two heritage fleet steam locomotives, units 844 and 3985, to help with the effort. It paid off in spades. Amtrak coped with the sudden demand explosion amazingly well, hauling its normal passenger load in a month in just 72 hours. To nobody's surprise, the collapse of air travel that followed 9/11 resulted in a huge bailout in November 2001 - but in recognition of Amtrak's Hurculean efforts and acknowledging that high-speed rail had been proven viable by the Texas TGV, Amtrak got a massive $24.5 Billion capital fund and was told to get cracking on the construction of a true high-speed rail system for America. In April 2002, California followed Texas' lead and approved a major high-speed rail system for the state, and Florida's high-speed rail system, approved in a 2000 referendum, was sped up, with the goal of having a Miami-Tampa-Orlando portion of the system built by 2008. In the aftermath of 9/11, even the shock of people in the Middle East was palpable - and the United States Government, enraged at those responsible, went to great lengths to point out that this was an attack by religious extremists. As if to drive the point home with a sledgehammer, when Iranian President Mohammed Khatami asked to see the site for himself on September 24, 2001, Clinton approved the idea - and Vice-President Al Gore escorted him personally, an act that would end up being one of the media scenes of the decade, a good photographer from Newsweek noting that Khatami was struggling to hold back tears seeing it all. Speaking at the White House later on, Khatami hammered a point which was to be heard many times in the coming years: "What I saw in New York City was not the actions of men who believe in God, it was the actions of people who are the very hands of evil, the actors of Satan. Iran and the United States of America have had many, many differences in times past for many reasons, but I wanted to see the place, what you have come to call Ground Zero, to explain to people that no matter our differences and the injustices of times past, nothing could ever justify what I saw. America wants revenge for such actions, they want to bring their righteous anger to bear on those responsible for the people whose lives have been taken. I understand that fully, and I will add to that point. On behalf of all of us in Iran, to hell with them, and to hell with those who would do such actions in the name of God. God will need to have mercy on them, because you have none, and neither do we." -- Iranian President Mohammed Khatami, speaking at the White House with President Clinton, October 6, 2001 The immediate post-9/11 era saw a sudden rise in American nationalism, and Detroit, with two of its automakers and three involved in international sports car racing, suddenly saw a massive growth in the following of its sports, with many people wanting to show what American cars could do. Having had an all-American team and a Georgia-built car win Le Mans in 1999, Panoz was the first to get the support, with Ford and Cosworth jumping on board with their new car for Le Mans for 2002. GM and Chrysler, both with active Le Mans programs, got a boost in support and calls for them to go haul ass at Le Mans in 2002, and so they went into the 2002 season with a suddenly-big following and a passionate hope for success. The same was true in Formula One - and with Jeff Gordon's finishing as runner-up to Alex Zanardi for the 2001 Formula One World Championship, the hope was that 2002 would bring success - and with new teammate Justin Wilson, the pair tore through Formula One in 2002, and despite Zanardi's best efforts at a title repeat, Gordon won his second World Championship - and made road racing hit a level of popularity not seen in America in decades. At Le Mans, hopes were even higher. After dominating the race in 2000 and 2001, Audi suddenly found the hopes of American race fans and the dedicated efforts of three American manufacturers coming for them. The Cadillac LMP02, Panoz-Ford GTP91 and Chrysler Patriot III were all testing heavily in the early part of the year, and the LMP02 started out fast, running the Audi R8s to the limit at the 24 Hours of Daytona and 12 Hours of Sebring endurance races for several hours in both cases before mechanical problems slowed the Cadillacs. The GTP91 was not as fast, but it was bombproof reliable and its drivers took advantage of its durability to push and push hard, while the Patriot III was fast but seemingly too-fragile to be able to survive 24 Hours. The overall result was that while Audi had the early edge, they would have to work hard to keep it - and when Chrysler came away with their first ALMS win at VIR in April and Panoz then topped the Audis at Sears Point, Le Mans was looking like a potentially big fight. And so it turned out to be. Le Mans in 2002 was an off-weekend for NASCAR and Indycars, and Detroit brought out every great driver they could get their hands on. The Patriot III of Tim Richmond, Butch Leitzinger and Al Unser Jr started from the pole position and led the first two hours before the Audis finally overhauled them, but the Chryslers fought on. They got a bit of luck when an errant GT car ended the day for the fastest of the Audis, causing a huge crash in the Porsche curves from which Audi driver Frank Biela thankfully walked away from. Ten hours in, the second Chrysler, driven by Casey Mears, Kurt Busch and Robby Gordon, overhauled the leading Audi to take the lead - a lead they would not relinquish, even as the third Chrysler retired with a blown engine and electrical problems slowed the Richmond/Leitzinger/Unser Jr Chrysler. The lead Chrysler finished the race the best part of a lap clear of the Audi of Allan McNish, Tom Kristensen and Michele Alboreto. Third went to the Ford-Panoz GTP91 driven by Mario Andretti, Michael Andretti, David Brabham and Jan Magnussen, which also won the GTP category for closed roof cars. A wild footnote to this was that all five classes in the 2002 24 Hours of Le Mans were won by North American teams or cars - with Canadian team Multimatic Motorsports and their Reynard 2KQ, powered by a turbocharged AMC four-cylinder engine, winning the LMP675 category, while Corvette Racing's team of Ron Fellows, Johnny O'Connell and Oliver Gavin outran the rival Prodrive Ferrari 550 GTs to come away with the GTS category win, and American team The Racers Group, at the wheel of their home-built Porsche 911 GT3RSX race cars, came home with the GT category win. It didn't take long for America to jump on the cause of taking down those who had attacked them on 9/11 - and it showed. On October 7, 2001, the first American and British forces landed in Afghanistan, seeking out and destroying the Taliban, followed by massive numbers of coalition troops. They were soon backed up by nations all over the world, And by early 2002 there were over 80 nations in support of the actions to destroy al-Qaeda and find Osama bin Laden. On February 18, 2002, America got its man - Osama's hideout in the Tora Bora mountains of eastern Afghanistan were invaded, and a combined force of United States Army Special Forces, British and Australian Special Air Service and Canadian Joint Task Force 2 commandos stormed Tora Bora, ably supported by Dutch Air Force Apache attack helicopters and an American AC-130 gunship. Osama bin Laden was killed in the raid, though whether he took his own life or was killed was a matter of debate among commentators. A month later after that, Iran and the United States came to an agreement that saw the United States re-open diplomatic relations between the two countries, and as the United States went to great lengths to say to Middle Eastern nations that this war was against those who had harmed America so badly, not against Islam. The fact that fifteen of the hijackers had been Saudis was not something that sat well in Washington, and indeed Iran's reformers saw it as an opportunity to get support for them as opposed to the Saudis, who Iran loathed. By late 2002, that message was getting across quite clearly, and the fact that President Clinton took the time to do two interviews on leading Arab news channel Al-Jazeera, even though the first was known for being somewhat testy towards him, was a surprise to many Arabs. For the Detroit automakers, beyond their success in racing, sales of Detroit cars swelled substantially as a percentage of the total market in the last quarter of 2001 and the first half of 2002. It wasn't hurt by the fact that the cars themselves were excellent, but the sense of patriotism was very real, and Detroit sought to take advantage. The Detroit makers, in particular American Motors, were in the process of introducing new models, with AMC bringing out its first Javelin in almost 25 years, which was introduced in March 2002 and was instantly on the list of cars people wanted to drive. With a new Camaro due for 2003 and a new Challenger for 2004, It was looking like all of a sudden somebody who wanted a ponycar had a whole bunch of new choices - and Ford, which had dominated the market for years, pushed the new Mustang up to a late 2004 release in large part as a result of the new ponycars from its Detroit rivals. In large part to the swinging rage of the Detroit makers, several of Japan's bigger players, Toyota in particular, chose to take them on head-on. One of the enduring results of this time was the baby boomers, many of them able by the 2000s to afford to have fun cars, buying up musclecars and cheaper fun cars in huge numbers. Toyota and Nissan got in on the act with the Nissan 350Z in 2003 and the Toyota Supra Mark V in 2005. By 2007, if one wanted a sporty car and had $35,000 to spend on it, they had an amazing number of choices to choose from - with Detroit alone offering the Dodge Copperhead and Challenger, Plymouth Prowler, AMC Javelin, Ford Mustang and Thunderbird, Chevrolet Camaro and Pontiac Fiero, with numerous good choices available from Japan and Europe.  This great image done by Maza on DeviantArt A 2005 Toyota Supra Mark V "It was the fun car revolution on so many fronts that it was amazing. You could buy dozens of cars that people could have fun with, and they just kept on coming, and people kept on buying them. Nobody had any idea of all of this demand, but it was almost like all of a sudden everybody in America wanted a car that was a blast to drive. It hit the Japanese kinda suddenly....but not Detroit. They had been working on that since the Corvair, and people who grew up driving Corvairs or Cavaliers or Mark II Escorts or Sierras or Spirits had learned to drive cars with taut suspension and quick, meaty steering, the sort of car that drove nice at slower speeds but then got up and ran when you wanted it to. Tokyo had to sort that problem out, and they didn't have a lot of time to do it. They tried, of course, but they had to make up for decades of experience from Detroit." -- Sam Mitani, Those Detroit Toys and Their Magnificent Toys Outside of the sports car and pony car markets, the world of cars was changing all over. In the 1980s, the automakers from Japan had been undercut by those from South Korea, and aside from a few abortive attempts by Yugo and Skoda in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the Koreans were the bottom of the car world in terms of prices and quality - but they began moving up the order in the 1990s and 2000s, leaving another gap in the bottom of the car manufacturing world - which in 2002 was filled by the arrival of Malaysia-based car makers Proton and Perodua. In the opposite direction, however, as the world's economic growth was fairly swift in the 2000s, the market for exporting Americans grew fairly quickly, as markets like India, Brazil, Argentina, South Africa and Thailand swelled as both middle class and wealthy car makers in those nations sought to buy a greater number of automobiles. After China's return to a more isolationist stance after the problems in Tiananmen Square, the biggest beneficiaries were its poorer Asian neighbors - the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia - and then it went on to India, which had begun a major series of economic reforms in 1991 which by the early 2000s were bearing quite a lot of fruit. AMC in particular, using connections through Nissan, invested substantially in India in the 2000s for local production of a number of smaller cars, with GM and Ford not far back. But perhaps the biggest investment of all by any of the Detroit makers came in South Africa. After apartheid's fall in 1994, South Africa's government sought new foreign investment to further industrial development, and they did fairly well at first - but scored big in 1997, when a group of South Africa's wealthiest investors formed the Reynard Motor Corporation, with famed racing car designer Adrian Reynard giving his name to the venture and South Africa's most famous auto engineer, Formula One legend Gordon Murray, being given the job of lead designer. Chrysler and Peugeot signed on to support the venture, and Reynard and Murray designed four great little cars - the Chaser microcar, Bobcat pickup truck, Fortuna small van and the small Kalahari sports car, all four of which with an MSRP of under $18,000. All were instant successes in South Africa and were soon being exported to Europe, making a name for their being much better-built than most cars in the price range. In 2005, Chrysler and Peugeot bought into the company, including the selling of the Chaser, Fortuna and Bobcat in North America, as all three filled holes in Chrysler's north American market which they had not filled themselves. The success of the Reynard efforts and a number of other efforts led to growing macroeconomic success in Southern Africa in the 1990s and 2000s, creating another market where Chrysler (through Reynard) and Ford (which was one of the last American companies to divest from South Africa in 1988 and one of the first to return in 1991) had an early edge, though the Japanese and Koreans fought their way in and did well themselves. Another major effect of technological advancement was every other automaker working to chase down the lead held by Toyota, Honda and GM in electric car technology. Ford brought out an electric version of its Focus hatchback in 2004, which was based on the Focus floorpan and basic body style, though that was about where the similarities ended. By 2007, GM had sold over 30,000 EV1s, and a second generation of the car was on the drawing board, planned for a 2010 launch. Ford's Focus electric, however, was a direct threat to the EV1, and Nissan's Leaf, which hit the road in 2006, was another such advancement. Both were aimed to combine electric-car friendliness to the environment with being far more usable and versatile than the EV1, though the additional weight and size of the Focus Electric and Leaf meant that it didn't have the EV1 performance or range. Despite that, however, the electric cars in question still sold in considerable numbers, and by the end of the decade, both would have outsold the EV1. On the other end of the scale was one of the first hybrid cars, the California-built Fisker Karma, which used AMC gas engines, Canadian Western Electric electric motors and Panasonic batteries, along with high-end superconducting wiring for the car, a carbon-fiber body and a neat interior, using environmentally-friendly interiors. The Karma, launched to considerable acclaim at the 2006 Detroit International Auto Show, was first delivered to customers in the fall of 2008.  A 2005 Ford Focus Electric  A 2010 Fisker Karma Surf station wagon "The Reynard-Chrysler friendship is not the first marriage of American and South African business interests, and not even the first in cars, but it is noteworthy for a lot of right reasons, namely the fact that it means Chrysler and Peugeot are committed to making sure they have a full line-up of excellent cars to sell. It can't hardly be a bad thing for there to be sufficient cars for an customer to choose exactly what they want, and with a Chaser starting at $10,000 all the way up to a Viper that costs over $80,000, it might be best said that Chrysler now has the most full lineup of cars of any of the American automakers." -- Autoweek Magazine on the entry of Reynard cars to North American markets, July 2006 "When it comes to the Americas, Western Europe, Australia and much of the Americas, the growth of the car market is entirely dependent on economic growth and can't really race forward. We know that at General Motors, and while we will always make cars that the American public will want to buy, the car world doesn't begin and end with the borders of the developed world. For two decades, prosperity has been the order of the day in much of the world, and we want to be part of that prosperity all across the world, including in those places which don't yet, but may one day, have the natural bounty for which Americans take for granted. The world is changing, and America's car makers will be best served by choosing to change with it." -- Rick Wagoner, GM President, talking to Newsweek magazine in June 2007 9/11 was a horrible event, but if anything, so many of the actions of the post-9/11 era, combined with President Clinton's deft maneuvering of international politics and his working with the Arab world after that, led to America's image in the Middle East improving - and with it came both greater prosperity, greater justice for the dead of the 9/11 attacks and, most of all, a sense that the future would indeed be that much better than the past. In what was now one of America's better cities, the Detroit automakers and their legions of engineers, office towers full of marketers and huge factories full of guys building the cars, were right on the front edge of this wave of optimism.... Last edited by TheMann; October 18th, 2012 at 10:44 PM..
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#105
October 17th, 2012, 01:43 AM
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This is a very good TL. I see that GM doesn't buy Saab. Coming from a person who was riding in Saabs since he was a baby, I wonder what happens to it ITTL? Once again, I love your TL's. Who is the list of presidents ITTL?
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"You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment."
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#106
October 17th, 2012, 02:07 AM
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#107
October 17th, 2012, 12:52 PM
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#108
October 17th, 2012, 02:20 PM
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 (Just regret a little Jav came too late for a 500pd-ft OE 401... Let the rodders at it! )Quote:
You tell 'em.With that in mind, tho, it puzzles me the Vega ends up with the same problems as OTL (or appears to).  Also, can you clarify? I understood it used the 'vair platform, because the 'vair got dropped. Not true? Or true, but shared anyhow, 'cause it's paid for?Quote:
Just wasn't clear if that was the suits TTL, or you. Also, let me throw in a minority vote for the Citation & clones. They weren't perfect, by any means, but I kinda liked 'em & was, & remain, a fan of the narrow V6. And yes, I'm slow catching up... Bear with me? 
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Sometimes a butterfly is just a butterfly. Economic Left/Right: -7.50 Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.00 Join GPRO Last edited by phx1138; October 17th, 2012 at 02:26 PM.. Reason: narrow margin
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#109
October 17th, 2012, 04:23 PM
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Bumping the TL
I see the geopolitical developments and enjoy all of them, notably the much quicker wrap-up of OBL and diplomatic breakthrough between Iran and the US after 9/11.
IDK about the upscaling of American cars and leaving the small-car market all to the Asian imports. IMO that's where the American car makers messed up by not snagging first-time car buyers and building brand loyalty. The main point of your TL is that the Big Four since AMC's still a going concern DIDN'T abandon the small-car market to them 1970's and 80's and built quality, good-driving cars that used less gas (or diesel). There's not much need to go Japanese or Korean for a decent starter car or a good family car. Pardon a wonky question, but since Clinton's plowing massive boodle into infrastructure- why not update the air-traffic control system and develop an integrated one for rail traffic as well? Wouldn't that effort prevent the dot-com crash or were there too many weak players hoping for buyouts at the time? Also, IMO you've butterflied the OTL dot-com boom. IMO the reason the dot-com boom got so yeasty is that there weren't that many brick and mortar businesses doing well enough to attract VC $$$ dumb money chased smart, and so it went. Y2K hysteria distorted folks' ideas of IT infrastructure needs, etc YMMV.
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#110
October 17th, 2012, 08:32 PM
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#111
October 17th, 2012, 10:39 PM
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Thanks for your prompt and cogent responses
Long story shorter, thanks for addressing my comments. Now back to work showing us how this decade should have started!
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#112
October 18th, 2012, 12:34 AM
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He who is easily converted isn't worth converting. Sargon's Theatre - the world's local cinema.
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#113
October 18th, 2012, 03:05 PM
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One note on AMC. Their HQ's had been in Michigan (Southfield?) since the '50s.
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Discussing W/Cs on Mote Prime thank you very much
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#114
October 18th, 2012, 09:45 PM
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#115
October 18th, 2012, 10:45 PM
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#116
October 19th, 2012, 01:22 AM
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Discussing W/Cs on Mote Prime thank you very much
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#117
October 19th, 2012, 02:26 AM
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One big problem for an upcoming bit- the financial crisis. GMAC at least went into the mortgage business and took a lot of losses from it. (One reason why it's now Ally.) Would GMAC, Ford Motor Credit and others be convinced not to branch out as much?
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#118
October 19th, 2012, 04:09 AM
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) ending. You see, here the Republicans aren't nearly as nuts as before, and Wall Street doesn't run the place....
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#119
October 19th, 2012, 04:52 AM
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And just as an FYI, these are the Presidental elections, from the point where they diverge:
1980 Ronald Reagan / George H.W. Bush (Republican) defeats Jimmy Carter / Walter Mondale (Democrat) 1984 Ted Kennedy / Henry M. Jackson (Democrat) defeats Ronald Reagan / George H.W. Bush (Republican) 1987 Vice-President Henry M. Jackson suffers a heart attack. He survives, but he has to step down as Vice-President. Senator Tom Harkin replaces him 1988 Ted Kennedy / Tom Harkin (Democrat) defeats George H.W. Bush / Jack Kemp (Republican) 1992 Howard Baker / Christine Todd Whitman (Republican) defeats Tom Harkin / Paul Tsongas (Democrat) 1996 Bill Clinton / Al Gore (Democrat) defeats Howard Baker / Christine Todd Whitman (Republican) 2000 Bill Clinton / Al Gore (Democrat) defeats John McCain / Colin Powell (Republican) 2004 Al Gore / John Kerry (Democrat) defeats Colin Powell / Lamar Alexander (Republican) 2008 Jon Huntsman Jr / Susan Collins (Republican) defeats Al Gore / John Kerry (Democrat) 2012 Jon Huntsman Jr / Susan Collins (Republican) defeats Bill Richardson / Joe Biden (Democrat) 2016 Barack Obama / Brian Schweitzer (Democrat) defeats Susan Collins / Marco Rubio
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#120
October 19th, 2012, 05:26 AM
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Recall may be faulty.
It also occurs to me, this means you move the entire business up-market slightly, which means all the Big Three are more profitable.
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