Wings of the Free World: What If The Avro Arrow entered service?

[TheMann]

I don't think any WWII British carrier is gonna truly fix the problem for a longer term, and American carriers have too many crew. If Canada is looking long-term, they'd be better to design one of their own or take a design like the French Clemenceau and go from there.

[Russell]

Originally Posted by TheMann

I don't think any WWII British carrier is gonna truly fix the problem for a longer term, and American carriers have too many crew. If Canada is looking long-term, they'd be better to design one of their own or take a design like the French Clemenceau and go from there.

I agree - the Clem design would almost certainly be the best for Canada. Bigger in size (although not in tonnage), with a 50% larger hanger and two longer catapults (50m vs 44m) but with a smaller crew than Vicky. Stores of aviation fuel and munitions is also somewhat improved, although not by much. The real issue is whether the design is properly suitable to Canada's needs. Its important to remember that the Clems were dewsigned primarily for catering Frances colonial needs, primarily in the Med, where the weather is calmer. As the Brazillians have found out, they do tend to struggle in the blustery Atlantic weather that they would find operating out of Halifax.

Russell

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Russell

I agree - the Clem design would almost certainly be the best for Canada. Bigger in size (although not in tonnage), with a 50% larger hanger and two longer catapults (50m vs 44m) but with a smaller crew than Vicky. Stores of aviation fuel and munitions is also somewhat improved, although not by much. The real issue is whether the design is properly suitable to Canada's needs. Its important to remember that the Clems were dewsigned primarily for catering Frances colonial needs, primarily in the Med, where the weather is calmer. As the Brazillians have found out, they do tend to struggle in the blustery Atlantic weather that they would find operating out of Halifax.

Russell

I agree on this one, and honestly I'd use the Clem design as a base, as Canada might want to have something a little bigger and able to handle larger aircraft, and you are right about the weather problem that the North Atlantic proposes.

[Luath]

Sorry Ming I meant HMS Eagle, brain no good at midnight. What of the TSR-2 in this timeline? Operational? Canned?

[Ming777]

Originally Posted by TheMann

I agree on this one, and honestly I'd use the Clem design as a base, as Canada might want to have something a little bigger and able to handle larger aircraft, and you are right about the weather problem that the North Atlantic proposes.

So possibly a modified Clemenceau class design modified for the brutal Atlantic weather (what modifications would these be?) and stretched for a 40-60 plane air wing (at least while Canada still uses the CF-5N Flechettes and CA-4 Skyhawks)

[marcus_aurelius]

Originally Posted by Luath

Sorry Ming I meant HMS Eagle, brain no good at midnight. What of the TSR-2 in this timeline? Operational? Canned?

Canned, I think. IIRC the RAF's buying Arrows, so yeah...

Marc A

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Ming777

So possibly a modified Clemenceau class design modified for the brutal Atlantic weather (what modifications would these be?) and stretched for a 40-60 plane air wing (at least while Canada still uses the CF-5N Flechettes and CA-4 Skyhawks)

That's not bad. If you are modifying the Clemenceau class design, first thing to do would be raise the freeboard somewhat and using stabilizers of some sort (not sure what is best for an aircraft carrier in this regard, honestly) to keep the ship stable in stormy North Atlantic weather.

If Canada is looking for replacements for those later on, may I suggest perhaps a quid pro quo with the British over the Arrow, and pick up a British aircraft for the new carrier? Skyhawks will be totally obsolete by the early 1970s, and there are a few options for use by the RCN at that time.

[JudgeKing]

Originally Posted by TheMann

That's not bad. If you are modifying the Clemenceau class design, first thing to do would be raise the freeboard somewhat and using stabilizers of some sort (not sure what is best for an aircraft carrier in this regard, honestly) to keep the ship stable in stormy North Atlantic weather.

If Canada is looking for replacements for those later on, may I suggest perhaps a quid pro quo with the British over the Arrow, and pick up a British aircraft for the new carrier? Skyhawks will be totally obsolete by the early 1970s, and there are a few options for use by the RCN at that time.

Maybe a navalized version of either the Sepecat Jaguar or Panavia Tornado perhaps?

[Russell]

So possibly a modified Clemenceau class design modified for the brutal Atlantic weather (what modifications would these be?) and stretched for a 40-60 plane air wing (at least while Canada still uses the CF-5N Flechettes and CA-4 Skyhawks)

Honestly, I wouldn't bother trying to stretch the design - it just leads to problems. When they tried it with Vicky, they realised that other changes had to be made, such as widening and deepening the hull, hence why her rebuild took over 8 years to complete. Major structural modification isn't as easy as wishing it. The Clems were notoriously difficult to operate in the North Atlantic - making it longer without bulking out the hull would just make the design even more unstable.

Also, you have to take into consideration than that how many aircraft a carrier can operate has a lot more than how many aircraft you can cram aboard - fuel storage, munitions storage, deck space/layout, lift number/layout, catapult number/layout are all factors - there is no point carrying 50-60 aircraft if the ship only has supplies and/or the capability to operate around 30-40.

However, that said, if you are really keen to go through with stretching the hull, I would make use of the new space for added munitions and aviation fuel (an area the Clems were deficient in).

Personally, if I were to modify a Clem for Canadian use I would do the following:

A. Remove the ships eight 100mm guns, extend the deck over them, saving a small amount of space for a moderate SAM system. Extend the angled deck slightly further forward over the port sponson to allow for both larger aircraft and longer catapults.

B. Move the inland lift to starboard edge, just forward of the island. (This might pose a problem when in use during rough weather).

C. Lengthened catapults (from 50m to 60m+).

D. In order to overcome the Clems rough sea handling problems, a stabilisation system would have be installed in addition to the existing stabilisation fins. The only downside of this is that it would eat into the ships fuel capacity, probably reducing range by a certain amount. But it will probably be necessary.

E. Strengthened deck to take heavier aircraft. (Downside here is that this would increase the ships instability with more top weight). You might also be able to install a gallery deck over the hangar while doing this, giving you more freeboard. However, this might again affects the ships stability for the same reason.

Canned, I think. IIRC the RAF's buying Arrows, so yeah...

The Arrow is an interceptor, while the TSR-2 was a strike aircraft - two very different platforms, so I wouldn't imagine the Arrow would negate the need for the TSR-2 (sadly).

Maybe a navalized version of either the Sepecat Jaguar or Panavia Tornado perhaps?

A variant of the proposed Anglo-French Variable Geometry aircraft might be a possible avenue to explore. It was intended to operate from the decks of the French Clems in OTL.

Russell

[Ming777]

My plan then is to have Canada build their own Carrier at the massive Saint John Shipbuilding Yard at Saint John, New Brunswick.

The carrier would be based on the Clemaneau design, which would be sold for a fair price as compensation for Charles De Gaulle's major gaffe in Montreal, 1967.

The design would be stretched (about 10 or so meters) and widened by a meter or so for stability, with a new stabilization system added to improve handing in Atlantic weather. The guns would be replaced by three RIM-2 Terrier Surface to Air Missile twin launchers.

HMCS Laurentia (alternatively HMCS Kanata, HMCS Magnificent, or HMCS Courageous), as it would be called, will be about 33,000 tons unloaded and about 43,000 tons loaded. It would be able to support 50 aircraft but has room for about 60 planes. It would take several to complete with a target to commission by 1972 to 1974. The Bonnie was only decomissioned in OTL due to Unification, so it could serve until the ear to mid 70s.

Length: 275 to 280 meters
Beam: 53 to 55 meters
Draught: 9.5 meters
Speed: 32 knots
Air wing:
HS 50: 4 Sikorsky CH-126 (CHSS-2) Sea King ASW helicopter
HS 51: 4 Sikorsky CH-126 (CHSS-2) Sea King ASW helicopter
VF 870: 10 Canadair CF-116C/D (CF5N-2) Flechette Mark II fighter aircraft
VF 872: 10 Canadair CF-116C/D (CF5N-2) Flechette Mark II fighter aircraft
VF 871: 10 Douglas CA-114 (A4D-5) Skyhawk attack aircraft
VS 880: 8 CP-121 (CS2F) Tracker ASW aircraft
VW 900: 2 CE-121 (CWF2) Tracer AEW aircraft.
The A4Ds will be replaced two squadrons of 8 larger attack aircraft.

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by JudgeKing

Maybe a navalized version of either the Sepecat Jaguar or Panavia Tornado perhaps?

The Jaguar was never meant for carriers to the best of my knowledge, and the Tornado won't be available to Canada until the late 70s. I was thinking Sea Vixen outfitted as an attack bird or the Buccaneer. The Bucc is kinda big for a Clemenceau-sized carrier (and somewhat underpowered as well) but is usable, and one could always have Orenda make new engines for it. The Sea Vixen is more off the wall, but I love twin-boom planes and the Sea Vixen is one of my favorites.

That's a good air wing there, Ming, except for one thing - by the early 70s, the Hawkeye will be available to NATO allies, and its more effective than the Tracer. Russell's points about the potential pitfalls of extending the Clem are valid, but if you are building new using the design you can built it to suit. His ideas are right, though, and I'd use two forward catapults rather than the one the Clem has.

[AdA]

Originally Posted by TheMann

The Jaguar was never meant for carriers to the best of my knowledge, and the Tornado won't be available to Canada until the late 70s. I was thinking Sea Vixen outfitted as an attack bird or the Buccaneer. The Bucc is kinda big for a Clemenceau-sized carrier (and somewhat underpowered as well) but is usable, and one could always have Orenda make new engines for it. The Sea Vixen is more off the wall, but I love twin-boom planes and the Sea Vixen is one of my favorites.

That's a good air wing there, Ming, except for one thing - by the early 70s, the Hawkeye will be available to NATO allies, and its more effective than the Tracer. Russell's points about the potential pitfalls of extending the Clem are valid, but if you are building new using the design you can built it to suit. His ideas are right, though, and I'd use two forward catapults rather than the one the Clem has.

The jaguar M was a carrier version. The French killed it in favour of the Etendart, with very implausible arguments.

[Ming777]

I guess Two CE-172 Hawkeyes for AWACS.

And Orenda Powered Buccaneer or an Orenda powered Jaguar M might be used for the attack role.

Yes it would have 2 forward Catapults and possibly a third on the waist.

On another note, the Iroquois Class destroyers will be slightly longer than OTL and after a refit with VLS will use a 5-inch/62-caliber gun.

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by AdA

The jaguar M was a carrier version. The French killed it in favour of the Etendart, with very implausible arguments.

I didn't know that. And looking at Jaguar, if Canada can get in on it early on, they may be able to get Orenda in on engine development for the Jaguar. It might be a good idea for the naval Jaguar to get slightly bigger wings, though.

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Ming777

I guess Two CE-172 Hawkeyes for AWACS.

And Orenda Powered Buccaneer or an Orenda powered Jaguar M might be used for the attack role.

Yes it would have 2 forward Catapults and possibly a third on the waist.

On another note, the Iroquois Class destroyers will be slightly longer than OTL and after a refit with VLS will use a 5-inch/62-caliber gun.

Designed for a 48 or 64-cell VLS in the front? If you are looking this way, after the Shah is tossed over in Iran, buy those missile destroyers ASAP. Best offer for them ever, and it also means that Canada could get experience with modern AAW vessels early on.

[AdA]

Originally Posted by TheMann

I didn't know that. And looking at Jaguar, if Canada can get in on it early on, they may be able to get Orenda in on engine development for the Jaguar. It might be a good idea for the naval Jaguar to get slightly bigger wings, though.

The only thing wrong with the Jaguar was lack of power. Give it more powerful engines and you have a world beater attack aircraft...

[Russell]

Originally Posted by TheMann

The Jaguar was never meant for carriers to the best of my knowledge, and the Tornado won't be available to Canada until the late 70s. I was thinking Sea Vixen outfitted as an attack bird or the Buccaneer. The Bucc is kinda big for a Clemenceau-sized carrier (and somewhat underpowered as well) but is usable, and one could always have Orenda make new engines for it. The Sea Vixen is more off the wall, but I love twin-boom planes and the Sea Vixen is one of my favorites.

The while the S.1 Buccaneer, with its de Havilland Gyron Junior engines was something of a letdown (and hence why few were built), the S.2 Buccaneer with its twin Speys was anything but underpowered! You forget that it was designed to operate from the RN's tiny carriers and thus needed what was at the time the most powerful Turbojet in use (in terms of size to thrust). Both Hermes and Vicky carried them and they operated with decent war loads, so sticking new engines into it won't be needed and would just be an unwanted expense.

I don't know if they ever cross-decked with the French Clems, but I imagine that they could. The only issue I see that could prevent this is the Clems deck strength and arrestor gear capability. Deck lift size and strength might also be a problem (in short the Bucc is a big beast). You would also have to take into consideration the Bucc's weird launch system. While it still used catapults to launch, in order to get enough lift when taking off, the aircraft was put on a special cradle and tilted back until only the rear wheels were on the ground. It worked, but only the British were ever daft enough to put this into practice.

If you want to see what I mean, take a look at the link below and skip forward to around 2:00 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Btdi8qNutw

Russell

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by AdA

The only thing wrong with the Jaguar was lack of power. Give it more powerful engines and you have a world beater attack aircraft...

The problem there is the RR-Turbomeca Adour is a tiny engine by jet engine standards, and fitting a better one in the same place is gonna be hard.

@ Russell: The Bucc is an excellent low-level strike aircraft, but it's also a seriously big mother. It's the size of a Tomcat (The Bucc is actually longer) and its loaded weight is heavier than the Tomcat. I don't think a plane that size is gonna be able to be effectively used on a carrier the size of a slightly-expanded Clemenceau.

[Russell]

Originally Posted by TheMann

The problem there is the RR-Turbomeca Adour is a tiny engine by jet engine standards, and fitting a better one in the same place is gonna be hard.

@ Russell: The Bucc is an excellent low-level strike aircraft, but it's also a seriously big mother. It's the size of a Tomcat (The Bucc is actually longer) and its loaded weight is heavier than the Tomcat. I don't think a plane that size is gonna be able to be effectively used on a carrier the size of a slightly-expanded Clemenceau.

Oh hell no - the Bucc was only ever carrier in small numbers, even by the bigger carriers like Ark Royal and Eagle. personally, i would just do what the Aussies planned to do if they bought a CVA-01 class or a refurbished Essex and operate a load of modified F-4's off the deck. With a stretched Clem, modified with stronger decks, cats, traps and lifts, you might be able to operate around 30-40 aircraft in total, including AEW and ASW.

Russell

[Ming777]

1966, Part 2

In June, a Soviet engineer from Mikoyan-Gurevich had elected to defect to the west along with his family. The engineer brought along the blueprint of the then rumored fighter known as the MiG-25. US Intelligence had feared that the fighter was a high-performance extremely agile aircraft. The engineer busted that myth and the plans showed the true nature of the new aircraft. Rather than a super-maneuverable fighter, the MiG-25 was an interceptor, and for all intents and purposes, the counterpart to the Canadian Avro Arrow.

It was a very heavy design, and according to the engineer, the MiG-25 project was having major problems as they were trying to redesign the aircraft after the debut of the Avro Arrow. The MiG-25 was evidently very poor at maneuverability, which would be its biggest weakness against the Arrow. He also brought a sketch of a proposed redesign he managed to take from the design bureau, and the new version seemed to have a few design cues from the Avro Arrow.

In the Middle East, King Hussein of Jordan made a secret visit to Jerusalem, with talks between them and Israel over growing tensions in the region. Since the 1940s, Jordan had secretly been trying to work with Israel, negotiating deals with King Abdullah I trying to make a deal with fture Israeli PM Golda Meir before the 1948 War, commentating that he preferred a Jewish state over an Palestinian Arab state controlled by the Mufti Al-Husseini.

Syria and Egypt were agitating for war with Israel, and Jordan was stuck in the middle, having no love for the Arab nationalists, but dealing with internal resentment of Israel as well. Egyptian president Nasser had become intolerable for the Hashemites and Israel, and wanting to bury the hatchet, both wanted to make peace without the other Arab nations knowing about it. During one discussion with Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, she mentioned, "I believe I have a solution for you, one that will let you maintain your dignity but have little harm from us. I believe we can work together, and I know of someone who can help..."

In a major shock, Jordan announced in August that they would be immediately ordering 48 Avro Arrows, and would also begin studies to modernize its military, though any procurements could only begin in 1969. After talks in Jerusalem, King Hussein and senior government officials, as well as the heads of Jordan's armed forces, flew with the Foreign Affair Ministers of Israel (on different flights) to Canada to speak with Prime Minister Pearson to discuss the topic of the middle east and secretly how Jordan could avoid joining the inevitable confrontation between Israel and the other Arab States. During such talks, Canadian Intelligence Officials joined in the discussion and a plan was made.

In September, the CBC begins to broadcast on TV in color, followed shortly by CTV.

In Octover, Montreal opens its metro system, and it soon becomes a major backbone of the city's transit system.

In December, a secret pact was made between Israel and Jordan, signed in Banff, Alberta, to not enter a direct conflict with one another, with Jordan to instead allow other Arab nations and Jordanian volunteers, serving in fellow nations, to take over Jordanian Bases along the border, though Jordanian troops still under the command of King Hussein were to remain in the West Bank. In return, Israel, via various fronts, bank transfers, and other channels, would covertly aid the rebuilding of any bases damaged by Israelis in a conflict.

On the topic of the West Bank, Jordan quietly agreed to begin work to clamp down on Palestinian Terrorist Groups, and in return, Israel and Jordan would begin talks at the UN to place Jerusalem under UN control once more and to allow the establishment of a Palestinian state, controlled by Jordan, that would be more or less friendly to Israel. With Nasser's increasingly belligerence rhetoric, it was only a matter of time before the Arabs or Israel made the first moves, and Jordan, having experienced directly fighting with Israel and saw them as worthy opponents in that war, was betting that the Arabs nations would not fare well in any war with the Jewish state.

On December 31, Canada lights up the Centennial flame, as Canada continued to play a major role on the world stage. With talk of tensions in the Middle East, the Vietnam War, and elsewhere, a cloud loomed over Canada as it was getting ready to celebrate its centennial.