That Wacky Redhead

[e_wraith]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

vultan and e of pi both have it - every role other than that held by John Ritter has been recast with nobody in particular ITTL. Well, strictly speaking, Mr. and Mrs. Roper are both middle-aged character actors; they are not, however, Norman Fell and Audra Lindley (I came very close to keeping Fell on, too, as I thought that he deserved it, given his OTL circumstances - but I thought that casting Ritter alone was enough of a stretch).

This is unfortunate. Norman Fell fit the role so well. Not that I have seen much Three's Company, I suppose, overall. Oh yeah, there was the wacky neighbor role too, can't even recall the original actor who played it so I suppose it matters not who played it in this timeline. (Richard Kline IOTL, I looked it up...)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Considering just how many chances Clooney got to become a big star IOTL, I'm actually quite suspicious that he had blackmail material or the like, because anyone else would have been written off years before. Surely his nepotistic connections to the far-more-talented Rosemary Clooney couldn't have played a part, could they? More likely, he got his hands on some very incriminating photos...

You overestimate the power of incriminating photos. The number of chances Clooney has had can be explained by nothing less than dark, dark magic. I suspect certain contracts were signed in blood, human sacrifice, etc, etc. To be fair, I am sure he's not the first star to take this path to fame and fortune. But still, Return of the Killer Tomatoes was his first (or close to first) foray into movies... How does one recover from that without serious help from diabolical forces?

[Andrew T]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Considering just how many chances Clooney got to become a big star IOTL, I'm actually quite suspicious that he had blackmail material or the like, because anyone else would have been written off years before. Surely his nepotistic connections to the far-more-talented Rosemary Clooney couldn't have played a part, could they? More likely, he got his hands on some very incriminating photos...

Originally Posted by e_wraith

You overestimate the power of incriminating photos. The number of chances Clooney has had can be explained by nothing less than dark, dark magic. I suspect certain contracts were signed in blood, human sacrifice, etc, etc. To be fair, I am sure he's not the first star to take this path to fame and fortune. But still, Return of the Killer Tomatoes was his first (or close to first) foray into movies... How does one recover from that without serious help from diabolical forces?

Okay, I have to ask: what's with the Clooney hate? As far as I can tell, he was only god-awful in one role (Batman & Robin, obviously) -- and he was far from the worst offender in that turd. (Schwarzenegger was a few billion times worse, for example, and nobody really seems to hold it against him.) And I guess the "Sexiest Man Alive" thing is annoying, too, but I'd rather it go to Clooney than to, oh, say, Hugh Grant.

So what else is there? He was, IMO, appropriately over-the-top in the remake of Oceans Eleven; he was excellent in Syriana, good in O Brother, Where Art Thou and obviously good-enough-to-be-in-movies while on ER. (I can't really comment on the show, since I never watched it.)

I haven't seen Burn After Reading or The Men Who Stare At Goats, but they looked okay from the trailers. Didn't see The Perfect Storm and don't intend to, but I find it hard to believe someone would form any strong opinions about that film one way or the other. Oh, and the Oceans sequels suck, obviously, but that doesn't strike me as Clooney's fault.

So what gives??

[vultan]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Okay, I have to ask: what's with the Clooney hate? As far as I can tell, he was only god-awful in one role (Batman & Robin, obviously) -- and he was far from the worst offender in that turd. (Schwarzenegger was a few billion times worse, for example, and nobody really seems to hold it against him.) And I guess the "Sexiest Man Alive" thing is annoying, too, but I'd rather it go to Clooney than to, oh, say, Hugh Grant.

So what else is there? He was, IMO, appropriately over-the-top in the remake of Oceans Eleven; he was excellent in Syriana, good in O Brother, Where Art Thou and obviously good-enough-to-be-in-movies while on ER. (I can't really comment on the show, since I never watched it.)

I haven't seen Burn After Reading or The Men Who Stare At Goats, but they looked okay from the trailers. Didn't see The Perfect Storm and don't intend to, but I find it hard to believe someone would form any strong opinions about that film one way or the other. Oh, and the Oceans sequels suck, obviously, but that doesn't strike me as Clooney's fault.

So what gives??

Personally, I think he's kind of too much of a self-righteous pretentious douche. For as suave as everyone likes to say he is, his making fun of Charlton Heston's Alzheimer's for political reasons was despicable. Though I will concede that I've put that aside for long enough to enjoy him in a lot of movies, particularly O Brother, Where Art Though? and Three Kings.

[e_wraith]

Originally Posted by vultan

Personally, I think he's kind of too much of a self-righteous pretentious douche. For as suave as everyone likes to say he is, his making fun of Charlton Heston's Alzheimer's for political reasons was despicable. Though I will concede that I've put that aside for long enough to enjoy him in a lot of movies, particularly O Brother, Where Art Though? and Three Kings.

Yep, pretty much exactly this on my part as well. I also have liked him in things despite his more annoying public comments on how much more enlightend Hollywood is than the rest of the universe. Still, it seems indisputeable like him or not that he had a pretty miraculous career. Look at his on and off roles in the 80s and you would think he would be a "that guy." Someone who pops up now and again in a supporting role and who you say "Oh yeah, that guy, he was in... Er, that other thing." Indeed, at one point his agent apparently thought a good career move would be for him to be in Return of the Killer Tomatoes. Not at the start of his career, note, but after he already had quite a few TV roles. I mean knowing that would you then say give it a few years and the same actor would be well on his way to being one of the biggest actors in Hollywood? Love or hate him, that is an amazing turn around.

[Brainbin]

I will never cease to be floored and amazed by the incredible response to this timeline. Exactly eleven months ago today, I posted a quirky little plot-bunny of an idea I had about a fun alternate pop-culture scenario, and today it has achieved popularity on par with some of my very wildest dreams (for like That Wacky Redhead, I dream big dreams - and you should, too). This thread now has over 250,000 views, and all of you are entirely responsible for it. Thank you all so very much. Your continuing support has encouraged me and lifted my spirits throughout this almost-year, and I hope that you'll all remain aboard as we roll on ahead - and all on account of That Wacky Redhead!

In celebration of this milestone, I've also changed my user subtitle - thanks to Thande for the inspiration, and to e of pi for the encouragement.

---

And now, to follow up with some celebratory responses!

Originally Posted by The Blue-Eyed Infidel

Fair enough; it just seemed odd that a discussion of one of the breakout hits of the TV season would mention the names of only one of the actors. Versimilitude might suggest made-up names with a footnote that these are not OTL actors.

You're absolutely right - and considering this milestone, I felt that you all deserved nothing less than being given a proper list of names - real ones, held by real actors. I hope you like my casting choices! You can see them by revisiting the update in question, or you can keep reading, as I will announce each of them in turn:

As Janice (the character analogous to "Chrissy" IOTL, and "Jo" in Man About the House), I have cast Susan Anton, one of the many late-1970s beauty queens who was famous for nothing in particular (beyond her looks). This is where the prestige of Desilu's involvement in the series proved fruitful, as it was able to attract a "star" of her "calibre", so to speak (Somers was a complete unknown at the time IOTL, and Silverman has often claimed that her casting was a big risk).

As Chrissy (analogous to "Janet" IOTL, and, of course, "Chrissy" in Man About the House), I chose Pam Dawber. A couple of years down the line IOTL, she was cast as one of the ultimate straight-men in sitcom history: Mindy in Mork & Mindy, opposite Robin Williams, in the greatest sitcom-as-career-breakthrough until Bruce Willis in Moonlighting.

And as Mrs. Roper, I've cast Betty Garrett, known at about this time IOTL as Irene Lorenzo, the blue-collar, bread-winning, liberated Catholic woman who lived next-door to the Bunkers (with her docile, homemaker husband Frank) in All in the Family from 1973 to 1975 (she would not play such a role in Those Were the Days ITTL).

And Mr. Roper? Well...

Originally Posted by e_wraith

This is unfortunate. Norman Fell fit the role so well.

And as you can see, I agreed with you! I decided to flip-flop and cast Fell in his iconic OTL role, and not usurp him in favour of Don Knotts ITTL.

Originally Posted by e_wraith

You overestimate the power of incriminating photos. The number of chances Clooney has had can be explained by nothing less than dark, dark magic. I suspect certain contracts were signed in blood, human sacrifice, etc, etc. To be fair, I am sure he's not the first star to take this path to fame and fortune. But still, Return of the Killer Tomatoes was his first (or close to first) foray into movies... How does one recover from that without serious help from diabolical forces?

Or, for that matter, from being a regular on The Facts of Life for two seasons. I've certainly heard worse explanations...

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Okay, I have to ask: what's with the Clooney hate? As far as I can tell, he was only god-awful in one role (Batman & Robin, obviously) -- and he was far from the worst offender in that turd. (Schwarzenegger was a few billion times worse, for example, and nobody really seems to hold it against him.) And I guess the "Sexiest Man Alive" thing is annoying, too, but I'd rather it go to Clooney than to, oh, say, Hugh Grant.

So what else is there? He was, IMO, appropriately over-the-top in the remake of Oceans Eleven; he was excellent in Syriana, good in O Brother, Where Art Thou and obviously good-enough-to-be-in-movies while on ER. (I can't really comment on the show, since I never watched it.)

I haven't seen Burn After Reading or The Men Who Stare At Goats, but they looked okay from the trailers. Didn't see The Perfect Storm and don't intend to, but I find it hard to believe someone would form any strong opinions about that film one way or the other. Oh, and the Oceans sequels suck, obviously, but that doesn't strike me as Clooney's fault.

So what gives??

I can't say I'm surprised that someone would rush to his defence, because it's not the first time that's happened on this thread. Not to put too fine a point on it, but people are allowed to dislike the Great and Powerful Clooney on account of personal taste, just as they are any other public figure. Now, that said...

The crux of it is Hype Backlash. He is not nearly as talented, handsome, or charismatic as the hive mind is insisting, and each time I witness such profuse overpraise being heaped upon him, it makes him go down further in my estimation. Perhaps I might see the appeal if I weren't constantly being told how amazing he is (see also: a certain cult writer of genre shows, starting in the late 1990s, who is supposedly The Greatest Writer In The History Of Creation And All His Works Are Sacred And Beyond Reproach. Seriously, you guys - no, he isn't). Sexiest Man Alive really doesn't bother me, actually (have you seen some of the other winners?), but "the last movie star"? Are you kidding me? The man who can't even open a movie unless he's surrounded by one of the most star-studded ensemble casts in Hollywood history? Dream on, Hype Machine. (Now, Will Smith - there's "the last movie star". Even if you don't like him, you can't argue with his grosses.) I've seen him in some of the things he'd rather Hollywood forget - The Facts of Life, Roseanne, The Golden Girls... you know, all those years he was toiling away, somehow being given chance after chance? Mediocre or worse in every last one of them. And whether or not he deserved an Oscar for Syriana (I can't say - I haven't seen it) - he didn't win for that reason. He won because he is Clooney and he was too popular not to (seriously, that was the argument I saw time and time again that year). And - okay, I'm being petty here, but still - that cocksure smirk of his. So off-putting.

Also: why are his defenders so eager to absolve him of his failures? He was terrible in Batman & Robin - no ifs, ands, or buts! He should own that! But no, he gets to joke about it - "Oh, I played him gay", he says to Baba Wawa. No, Clooney, you played him poorly. Don't try to save your performance with any of that cynical, post-modern tripe now. And yes, he was worse than Schwarzenegger, who knew exactly what kind of movie he was in and acted accordingly. And the icing on the cake...

Originally Posted by vultan

Personally, I think he's kind of too much of a self-righteous pretentious douche. For as suave as everyone likes to say he is, his making fun of Charlton Heston's Alzheimer's for political reasons was despicable.

At the end of the day, this is my real problem with him. I've seen very little to indicate that I would like him at all if I knew him personally - and plenty of evidence to the contrary (leaving political opinions aside - after all, most of us do have friends who vote differently from us - his attack on Heston was deplorable).

But, as with that cult TV writer, and that modern OTL spinoff of Star Trek, I realize that I'm in the minority on the matter. No hard feelings to you fans of his

[THE OBSERVER]

You are welcome Brainbin!

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Suzanne Somers

It appears her claim to fame is limited to appearances in "Grafitti" & "Magnum Force", then--presuming both of those even happen. (She will not be missed by me, anyhow.)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Considering just how many chances Clooney got to become a big star IOTL, I'm actually quite suspicious that he had blackmail material

I couldn't say. I've liked some of his films (nothing exceptionally), & really liked "Michael Clayton". I hated the 2d "ER"...or rather, after watching the pilot, wouldn't have cared if they'd bombed the hospital & killed them all. (Naturally, after I liked Mandy Patinkin's Geiger from 3 minutes into the pilot of "Chicago Hope", they wrote him out...)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

And who knows how much longer she would have lasted, had she acceded to appear in Some Kind of Wonderful (Lea Thompson was cast in her stead).

Couldn't say. Never a particular fan, just sayin'.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Why am I not surprised?

Ritter just bugged me. I never could get past that. Was he talented? IDK, & couldn't care. If Ritter's career fell in a hole, I wouldn't miss him. If he becomes bigger than Arnold, I still wouldn't go see his movies or watch his show. He'll still bug me.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

From what I recall, Smallville didn't exactly have the best track record when it came to potential spinoffs anyway...

Not praising the show as much as his loyalty. I thought it was classy.

Originally Posted by The Blue-Eyed Infidel

Fair enough; it just seemed odd that a discussion of one of the breakout hits of the TV season would mention the names of only one of the actors. Versimilitude might suggest made-up names with a footnote that these are not OTL actors.

I tend to agree. There were actors in shows that didn't get picked up who could get cast, instead, TTL... Even ones we might know, but who were unknown then.

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I will never cease to be floored and amazed by the incredible response to this timeline. Exactly eleven months ago today, I posted a quirky little plot-bunny of an idea I had about a fun alternate pop-culture scenario, and today it has achieved popularity on par with some of my very wildest dreams (for like That Wacky Redhead, I dream big dreams - and you should, too). This thread now has over 250,000 views, and all of you are entirely responsible for it. Thank you all so very much. Your continuing support has encouraged me and lifted my spirits throughout this almost-year, and I hope that you'll all remain aboard as we roll on ahead - and all on account of That Wacky Redhead!

In celebration of this milestone, I've also changed my user subtitle - thanks to Thande for the inspiration, and to e of pi for the encouragement.

Hey, you're very much welcome for writing such an interesting TL

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I can't say I'm surprised that someone would rush to his defence, because it's not the first time that's happened on this thread. Not to put too fine a point on it, but people are allowed to dislike the Great and Powerful Clooney on account of personal taste, just as they are any other public figure. Now, that said...

The crux of it is Hype Backlash. He is not nearly as talented, handsome, or charismatic as the hive mind is insisting, and each time I witness such profuse overpraise being heaped upon him, it makes him go down further in my estimation. Perhaps I might see the appeal if I weren't constantly being told how amazing he is (see also: a certain cult writer of genre shows, starting in the late 1990s, who is supposedly The Greatest Writer In The History Of Creation And All His Works Are Sacred And Beyond Reproach. Seriously, you guys - no, he isn't). Sexiest Man Alive really doesn't bother me, actually (have you seen some of the other winners?), but "the last movie star"? Are you kidding me? The man who can't even open a movie unless he's surrounded by one of the most star-studded ensemble casts in Hollywood history? Dream on, Hype Machine. (Now, Will Smith - there's "the last movie star". Even if you don't like him, you can't argue with his grosses.) I've seen him in some of the things he'd rather Hollywood forget - The Facts of Life, Roseanne, The Golden Girls... you know, all those years he was toiling away, somehow being given chance after chance? Mediocre or worse in every last one of them. And whether or not he deserved an Oscar for Syriana (I can't say - I haven't seen it) - he didn't win for that reason. He won because he is Clooney and he was too popular not to (seriously, that was the argument I saw time and time again that year). And - okay, I'm being petty here, but still - that cocksure smirk of his. So off-putting.

Also: why are his defenders so eager to absolve him of his failures? He was terrible in Batman & Robin - no ifs, ands, or buts! He should own that! But no, he gets to joke about it - "Oh, I played him gay", he says to Baba Wawa. No, Clooney, you played him poorly. Don't try to save your performance with any of that cynical, post-modern tripe now. And yes, he was worse than Schwarzenegger, who knew exactly what kind of movie he was in and acted accordingly. And the icing on the cake...

At the end of the day, this is my real problem with him. I've seen very little to indicate that I would like him at all if I knew him personally - and plenty of evidence to the contrary (leaving political opinions aside - after all, most of us do have friends who vote differently from us - his attack on Heston was deplorable).

But, as with that cult TV writer, and that modern OTL spinoff of Star Trek, I realize that I'm in the minority on the matter. No hard feelings to you fans of his

I think that's it in a nutshell if he wasn't sooo defended people would hate him less.
He's gone down in my opinion as time and again he does something jerkworthy and relies on his "suavity" to excuse him.

He's kind of the reverse Brad Pitt.
When BP started he was a bit of a jerk and couldn't act. Yet over the years he has painfully learned his craft (admittedly he's not brilliant), refused to rely on his looks, and behavoured admirably in public (excluding his marriage breakup of course).

[Andrew T]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

As Chrissy (analogous to "Janet" IOTL, and, of course, "Chrissy" in Man About the House), I chose Pam Dawber. A couple of years down the line IOTL, she was cast as one of the ultimate straight-men in sitcom history: Mindy in Mork & Mindy, opposite Robin Williams, in the greatest sitcom-as-career-breakthrough until Bruce Willis in Moonlighting.

Good lord, Brainbin; that's genius. Sadly, you've now butterflied away Mork & Mindy (at least as we know it), which is probably a net loss, no matter how good TTL's Three's Company is.

My guess is that "Janice or Chrissy?" will be TTL's equivalent of "Ginger or Mary Ann?" And speaking of "sex bomb"/"girl next door" pairings -- don't forget "Jennifer or Bailey?" (WKRP in Cincinnati), due up in early 1978....

Also: I'm not sure I would count myself as a Clooney "defender" -- I just think there are better targets for "most overrated actor." The aforementioned Hugh Grant, for instance. Oh, and don't get me started on Julia Roberts....

[Flubber]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Sadly, you've now butterflied away Mork & Mindy (at least as we know it), which is probably a net loss, no matter how good TTL's Three's Company is.

That's a bit of hyperbole, don't you think? As nice as Dawber was in a girl-next-door, Mary Ann sort of way, she could be easily replaced. Hollywood has dozens of Dawbers floating around at any given moment, she had about as many lines in a typical M&M episode as an average piece of set furniture, and her post-M&M career illustrates her pedestrian talents rather neatly.

Dawber could be replaced and we'd never know it. All you need for M&M is Robin Williams, a guy who was already Clooney-level douchebag back when Clooney was still sleeping on his aunt's couch.

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Good lord, Brainbin; that's genius. Sadly, you've now butterflied away Mork & Mindy (at least as we know it), which is probably a net loss, no matter how good TTL's Three's Company is.

Wouldn't it have been butterflied anyway ? Mork & Mindy was a spin-off of Happy Days, which of course is different ITTL.

Cheers,
Nigel.

[Flubber]

Originally Posted by NCW8

Wouldn't it have been butterflied anyway ? Mork & Mindy was a spin-off of Happy Days, which of course is different ITTL.

Very good point. Casting Dawber ITTL's Three's Company doesn't butterfly away Mork and Mindy, a different Happy Days which doesn't has Williams one-off guest appearance as the "wacky alien" does the job instead.

[Brainbin]

More comments? Well, here are some more responses!

Originally Posted by e_wraith

Yep, pretty much exactly this on my part as well. I also have liked him in things despite his more annoying public comments on how much more enlightened Hollywood is than the rest of the universe.

Maybe it's because I tend to be very stubborn about my tastes, but I have never liked him in anything. (Even in the many 1980s shows in which he appears, I merely tolerate his presence so that I can enjoy everyone around him - though I do love how, without exception, everyone else in his scenes always acts circles around him.) But yes, his moralizing is deeply tedious. (It's what I hate most about the Oscars, too - can't they just hand out the awards, so that I can update my rosters already?!)

Originally Posted by e_wraith

Still, it seems indisputeable like him or not that he had a pretty miraculous career. Look at his on and off roles in the 80s and you would think he would be a "that guy." Someone who pops up now and again in a supporting role and who you say "Oh yeah, that guy, he was in... Er, that other thing."

To this day, I still enjoy dismissively referring to him as George "Facts of Life" Clooney

Originally Posted by e_wraith

I mean knowing that would you then say give it a few years and the same actor would be well on his way to being one of the biggest actors in Hollywood? Love or hate him, that is an amazing turn around.

It's the same with child actors. Look at an actor who, like Clooney, appeared on Roseanne: Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Could you imagine his eventual career trajectory?

Originally Posted by phx1138

It appears her claim to fame is limited to appearances in "Grafitti" & "Magnum Force", then--presuming both of those even happen. (She will not be missed by me, anyhow.)

I must say, phx - I admire the consistency of your idiosyncrasy, however much it also befuddles me

In all seriousness: Somers will not achieve celebrity ITTL. Just as Fell gets what he deserves, so too does Somers.

Originally Posted by phx1138

I couldn't say. I've liked some of his films (nothing exceptionally), & really liked "Michael Clayton". I hated the 2d "ER"...or rather, after watching the pilot, wouldn't have cared if they'd bombed the hospital & killed them all.

Since you've implied its existence repeatedly, am I to understand that you're familiar with the 1984 sitcom E/R, which (sadly) also starred Clooney? (And set in Chicago, too! What is it with Chicago and hospitals?) What's your opinion on that one? Well, assuming that you can remember anything specific after almost three decades, anyway.

Originally Posted by phx1138

Ritter just bugged me. I never could get past that. Was he talented? IDK, & couldn't care. If Ritter's career fell in a hole, I wouldn't miss him. If he becomes bigger than Arnold, I still wouldn't go see his movies or watch his show. He'll still bug me.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, though again I'm not sure why you feel the need to share your violent fantasies with us

Originally Posted by phx1138

I tend to agree. There were actors in shows that didn't get picked up who could get cast, instead, TTL... Even ones we might know, but who were unknown then.

Did you not notice my casting changes?

Originally Posted by The Professor

Hey, you're very much welcome for writing such an interesting TL

Not intriguing, Professor? You were one of the people who established that term, waaay back when...

Originally Posted by The Professor

He's gone down in my opinion as time and again he does something jerkworthy and relies on his "suavity" to excuse him.

So, so true. And the sad thing is that it works! Sigh...

Originally Posted by Andrew T

Good lord, Brainbin; that's genius. Sadly, you've now butterflied away Mork & Mindy (at least as we know it), which is probably a net loss, no matter how good TTL's Three's Company is.

Thank you very much! Though, as Nigel points out, I've actually already put Dawber out of work, which is part of the reason that I decided to cast her as Chrissy.

Originally Posted by Andrew T

My guess is that "Janice or Chrissy?" will be TTL's equivalent of "Ginger or Mary Ann?" And speaking of "sex bomb"/"girl next door" pairings -- don't forget "Jennifer or Bailey?" (WKRP in Cincinnati), due up in early 1978....

Ah yes, that sitcom set in the Land of Falling Turkeys You're not the only one to ask me about that, actually. We'll just have to see!

Originally Posted by Flubber

That's a bit of hyperbole, don't you think? As nice as Dawber was in a girl-next-door, Mary Ann sort of way, she could be easily replaced. Hollywood has dozens of Dawbers floating around at any given moment, she had about as many lines in a typical M&M episode as an average piece of set furniture, and her post-M&M career illustrates her pedestrian talents rather neatly.

Glad you're still reading, Flubber! Though I must say, nothing is hyperbolic if it entails showering me with compliments

Originally Posted by Flubber

Dawber could be replaced and we'd never know it. All you need for M&M is Robin Williams, a guy who was already Clooney-level douchebag back when Clooney was still sleeping on his aunt's couch.

Ouch. I like your rapier wit, and I hope never to be on the wrong side of it!

Originally Posted by NCW8

Wouldn't it have been butterflied anyway ? Mork & Mindy was a spin-off of Happy Days, which of course is different ITTL.

Very perceptive, Nigel. You are correct, of course.

Originally Posted by Flubber

Very good point. Casting Dawber ITTL's Three's Company doesn't butterfly away Mork and Mindy, a different Happy Days which doesn't has Williams one-off guest appearance as the "wacky alien" does the job instead.

Ironic, isn't it, that a studio headed by That Wacky Redhead herself could ground an OTL sitcom. But Miller-Milkis-Boyett were definitely prone to flights of fancy...

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I must say, phx - I admire the consistency of your idiosyncrasy, however much it also befuddles me

I can't say I'm surprised you're befuddled. I do wonder, in the Somers instance, how this is more, or less, consistent.

As for why I am? No idea. It's not an effort to be contrary... (No, it's effortless.)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Since you've implied its existence repeatedly, am I to understand that you're familiar with the 1984 sitcom E/R, which (sadly) also starred Clooney? (And set in Chicago, too! What is it with Chicago and hospitals?) What's your opinion on that one? Well, assuming that you can remember anything specific after almost three decades, anyway.

Don't recall it, but have heard of it. The irony of it stuck with me.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, though again I'm not sure why you feel the need to share your violent fantasies with us

You will notice, this time, I didn't suggest Ritter himself fall under a bus.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Did you not notice my casting changes?

As said, never a fan, so no... I skimmed it, but didn't give it careful attention.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Ah yes, that sitcom set in the Land of Falling Turkeys You're not the only one to ask me about that, actually. We'll just have to see!

"I swear, I thought they could fly". "Play the playlist. Play part of the playlist. Play a song on the playlist. Play part of a song on the playlist."

BTW, have you ever seen "Equinox"? Featuring a young Frank Bonner...& it's as bad as you'd expect.

Originally Posted by NCW88

Wouldn't it have been butterflied anyway ? Mork & Mindy was a spin-off of Happy Days, which of course is different ITTL.

That would have made my mom unhappy. She used to really like "M&M".

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by phx1138

"I swear, I thought they could fly". "Play the playlist. Play part of the playlist. Play a song on the playlist. Play part of a song on the playlist."

Booger!

I particularly Liked the episode In Concert. They handled the serious subject very well.

Originally Posted by phx1138

That would have made my mom unhappy. She used to really like "M&M".

Me too. Williams is an attention hog, but he does have a talent for comedy.

Cheers,
Nigel

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by NCW8

I particularly Liked the episode In Concert. They handled the serious subject very well.

Agreed, tho I had to see it again in repeats about 20yr later to appreciate it. At the time, I was a trifle young to make the connection with the news. I kept seeing the link to "FM"...

[Thande]

Although I am aware of the existence of Man About the House, I've never seen it, in part due to it not being part of UK Gold's primary lineup back when I was educating myself about British comedy in the seventies and eighties, so I wasn't aware that it was a farce--though considering the premise this is probably inevitable. One tends to assume that farce is such a characteristically 'English' form of comedy that you get surprised when you see it elsewhere, but this is probably giving ourselves too much exceptionalist credit. I mean I even found out recently that America used to have pantomimes back in the day...

[Flubber]

Originally Posted by NCW8

Williams is an attention hog...

That's quite an understatement.

I had the "pleasure" of watching Williams perform at The Punch Line" in San Francisco either in late '83 or '84. (I was stationed at Alameda for a big chunk of the 80s and can only place the incident in reference to deployments.) It was a "pleasure", you see, because Williams wasn't scheduled to perform...

"The Punch Line" was part of a skyscraper complex. A multi-story parking garage takes up the entire block there with the skyscraper further rising from just a portion of the block's footprint. The rest of the garage's roof is taken up by a small park and "The Punchline".

The club is long and narrow with the bar and stage set opposite each other along the long sides of the building. We were on an otherwise normal weekday night watching an otherwise normal weekday line-up. A female comedian, whose name I never remembered and whose face I never saw again, was at the mic working her way through a formulaic routine about her boyfriend when a voice from the bar shouted "BULLSHIT!"

The stage hand quickly swung a spot onto the heckler because that's exactly what a heckled comedian needs; you must quickly, savagely, and humorously strike the heckler down to keep the crowd on your side. The spot swings around, all eyes follow it, and the heckler is revealed as...

... Robin Williams. (Which you'd already guessed.)

We all stare in shock as Williams leaves bar, walks through the shallow seating area, gets up on stage, takes the mic from the woman who had been working there, and proceeds to do 10 minutes of stream-of-consciousness stuff that left us gasping.

We were all still goggling when Williams simply stopped in the middle of some riff, handed the mic back to the female comedian, and left the club. She stood there for a brief period, hung the mic up, and walked off.

At first we all talked about how amazing the whole incident had been but within minutes we all also began to realize what an world record example of titanic egotistical douchebaggery we'd witnessed.

Before this, I'd been content to enjoy Williams in small doses. After this, if Williams was on fire I wouldn't cross the street to piss on him.

I read many years later that Williams had been going through a bad period during this time. The story was that the cruel hangover that always follows immediate overwhelming fame was hammering him, that his personal life was in a shambles, that he was using a lot of cocaine, plus a lot of other usual excuses. I also read that what we'd witnessed at "The Punch Line" occurred in other clubs in other cities across the US; Williams would finish his headliner set at some big venue, then sneak off to some small comedy club, hide at the bar for a while, and then take over someone's set.

What a swell guy.

I'm sure we've all heard of or received this advice concerning women: If you want to judge a woman's character watch how all other women treat her. The same holds true across the board. You can judge someone's character by watching how their peers treat them. Williams, like Leno, is despised by other comedians and that treatment has been earned.

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by Flubber

That's quite an understatement.

Ah, well - a little understatment goes a long way

I haven't seen him perform live, but your description certainly sounds in character. Seeing how he behaves on talk shows was enough for me.

Cheers,
Nigel.

[The Blue-Eyed Infidel]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

You're absolutely right - and considering this milestone, I felt that you all deserved nothing less than being given a proper list of names - real ones, held by real actors. I hope you like my casting choices! You can see them by revisiting the update in question, or you can keep reading, as I will announce each of them in turn:

As Janice (the character analogous to "Chrissy" IOTL, and "Jo" in Man About the House), I have cast Susan Anton, one of the many late-1970s beauty queens who was famous for nothing in particular (beyond her looks). This is where the prestige of Desilu's involvement in the series proved fruitful, as it was able to attract a "star" of her "calibre", so to speak (Somers was a complete unknown at the time IOTL, and Silverman has often claimed that her casting was a big risk).

As Chrissy (analogous to "Janet" IOTL, and, of course, "Chrissy" in Man About the House), I chose Pam Dawber. A couple of years down the line IOTL, she was cast as one of the ultimate straight-men in sitcom history: Mindy in Mork & Mindy, opposite Robin Williams, in the greatest sitcom-as-career-breakthrough until Bruce Willis in Moonlighting.

And as Mrs. Roper, I've cast Betty Garrett, known at about this time IOTL as Irene Lorenzo, the blue-collar, bread-winning, liberated Catholic woman who lived next-door to the Bunkers (with her docile, homemaker husband Frank) in All in the Family from 1973 to 1975 (she would not play such a role in Those Were the Days ITTL).

{snip}

And as you can see, I agreed with you! I decided to flip-flop and cast Fell in his iconic OTL role, and not usurp him in favour of Don Knotts ITTL.

As the commenter "responsible", I feel somewhat obligated to give my opinion, so:

• Susan Anton - I feel this is an upgrade; I honestly never found Suzanne Somers talented or (and I realize this is somewhat idiosyncratic) all that attractive.
• Pam Dawber - I can see this causing a slight shift in the characterization, but pretty much a one-for-one swap.
• Irene Lorenzo - I found Audra Lindley fairly grating, but I suspect this is as much a function of the writing as the actress in question, so again, probably a one-for-one swap.
• Norman Fell - Glad you decided to keep him in the role, and that it will last longer than OTL; while Don Knotts didn't do a bad job as the replacement for the Ropers, I thought Fell was quite good in the role.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

The crux of it is Hype Backlash. He is not nearly as talented, handsome, or charismatic as the hive mind is insisting, and each time I witness such profuse overpraise being heaped upon him, it makes him go down further in my estimation. Perhaps I might see the appeal if I weren't constantly being told how amazing he is (see also: a certain cult writer of genre shows, starting in the late 1990s, who is supposedly The Greatest Writer In The History Of Creation And All His Works Are Sacred And Beyond Reproach. Seriously, you guys - no, he isn't). Sexiest Man Alive really doesn't bother me, actually (have you seen some of the other winners?), but "the last movie star"? Are you kidding me? The man who can't even open a movie unless he's surrounded by one of the most star-studded ensemble casts in Hollywood history? Dream on, Hype Machine. (Now, Will Smith - there's "the last movie star". Even if you don't like him, you can't argue with his grosses.) I've seen him in some of the things he'd rather Hollywood forget - The Facts of Life, Roseanne, The Golden Girls... you know, all those years he was toiling away, somehow being given chance after chance? Mediocre or worse in every last one of them. And whether or not he deserved an Oscar for Syriana (I can't say - I haven't seen it) - he didn't win for that reason. He won because he is Clooney and he was too popular not to (seriously, that was the argument I saw time and time again that year). And - okay, I'm being petty here, but still - that cocksure smirk of his. So off-putting.

Also: why are his defenders so eager to absolve him of his failures? He was terrible in Batman & Robin - no ifs, ands, or buts! He should own that! But no, he gets to joke about it - "Oh, I played him gay", he says to Baba Wawa. No, Clooney, you played him poorly. Don't try to save your performance with any of that cynical, post-modern tripe now. And yes, he was worse than Schwarzenegger, who knew exactly what kind of movie he was in and acted accordingly. And the icing on the cake...

At the end of the day, this is my real problem with him. I've seen very little to indicate that I would like him at all if I knew him personally - and plenty of evidence to the contrary (leaving political opinions aside - after all, most of us do have friends who vote differently from us - his attack on Heston was deplorable).

But, as with that cult TV writer, and that modern OTL spinoff of Star Trek, I realize that I'm in the minority on the matter. No hard feelings to you fans of his

Not a fan; while I actually thought he was OK in Roseanne (which was the last time he allowed himself to play an unsympathic character) and excellent in Oh Brother, Where Art Thou (where his smarminess actually works with the characterization), I've been left cold by the rest of his performances - those that I've seen - for pretty much the reasons you state.

TB-EI