DBWI: Industrial Revolution in Europe

[Derekc2]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

You cant really keep the Carolingian together as a state though, the region they controlled was too big, too ethnically and geographically diverse and there administrative capacity is weak and disorganized, what you want is a far less bloody end than the their war of succession which broke the fragile stability that Charlemagne fostered in Europe and eventually shattered the empire into its tiny components, just cutting down the successors from the nine* that broke off to something like three or four will be a massive improvement for Europes prospects. I mean

* France (just the northern part), Aquitaine, Burgundy, Frisia, Bavaria, Saxony, Lombardy, Hungary, and Wendland, the northern Balkan and Spanish parts of the empire where annexed by their neighbors.

We could have it go the way that it did in the alternate world with the big two being France (which inclused both France and Aquitaine) and the Holy Roman Empire (which included everything else minus Hungary and Wendland).

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by Derekc2

We could have it go the way that it did in the alternate world with the big two being France (which inclused both France and Aquitaine) and the Holy Roman Empire (which included everything else minus Hungary and Wendland).

Yes but that's boring since it actually happened somewhere, we gotta try to have little fun with this.

[Derekc2]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

Yes but that's boring since it actually happened somewhere, we gotta try to have little fun with this.

But's it's also a sure fired way of making the WI work.

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by Derekc2

But's it's also a sure fired way of making the DBWI work.

OOC: actually the point of the DBWI is essentially to come at it from the perspective of ignorance of our world and how things actually happened, it kind of pokes fun at the whole idea of the site but is also a novel way of coming up with alt history scenarios and attitudes.

[Derekc2]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

OOC: actually the point of the DBWI is essentially to come at it from the perspective of ignorance of our world and how things actually happened, it kind of pokes fun at the whole idea of the site but is also a novel way of coming up with alt history scenarios and attitudes.

OOC: You have a point. Also I feel stupid for typing "DBWI". I will change that to WI.

IC: I wonder how ever what that bigot Pitike thinks of that world. I bet he's freaked out by that world where europeans are all in the first world.

[willbell]

I think this is one of the longest lasting non-TL threads I have ever seen (other than perhaps my first thread asking what if no rome).

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by willbell

I think this is one of the longest lasting non-TL threads I have ever seen (other than perhaps my first thread asking what if no rome).

Hell if I wasnt so damn busy (and bad at starting things) I would probably have turned it into one by now.

[Chirios]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

Hell if I wasnt so damn busy (and bad at starting things) I would probably have turned it into one by now.

OOC: It's been done IRL. Can't remember what the book is called though.

IC: To get an industrial revolution in Europe, or rather, in what we culturally define as Europe, you have to butterfly away Al-Andalus. Don't forget, it was Al-Andalus that first discovered the Western Continent*; and with it the vast gold reserves in the South. They then managed to capture Songhay and control the transaharan trade. That flood of wealth into the Muslim world depressed the market, and allowed more gold to flow into the hands of merchants and artisans than normally would have. If some Christian kingdom were to control Iberia, they would likely replace OTL Al-Andalus.

*No idea what the Arabic for America would be.

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by Chirios

OOC: It's been done IRL. Can't remember what the book is called though.

IC: To get an industrial revolution in Europe, or rather, in what we culturally define as Europe, you have to butterfly away Al-Andalus. Don't forget, it was Al-Andalus that first discovered the Western Continent*; and with it the vast gold reserves in the South. They then managed to capture Songhay and control the transaharan trade. That flood of wealth into the Muslim world depressed the market, and allowed more gold to flow into the hands of merchants and artisans than normally would have. If some Christian kingdom were to control Iberia, they would likely replace OTL Al-Andalus.

*No idea what the Arabic for America would be.

OOC: Arada da Jadida (Arabic for New Land) is I what I think we used for awhile.

[FellowNerd]

Originally Posted by Chirios

OOC: It's been done IRL. Can't remember what the book is called though.

IC: To get an industrial revolution in Europe, or rather, in what we culturally define as Europe, you have to butterfly away Al-Andalus. Don't forget, it was Al-Andalus that first discovered the Western Continent*; and with it the vast gold reserves in the South. They then managed to capture Songhay and control the transaharan trade. That flood of wealth into the Muslim world depressed the market, and allowed more gold to flow into the hands of merchants and artisans than normally would have. If some Christian kingdom were to control Iberia, they would likely replace OTL Al-Andalus.

*No idea what the Arabic for America would be.

Didn't the Gold from Arada da Jadida cause Al-Andalus to have severe inflation for almost a century?
With the Carolingian Empire It will break up. The question is when and how. If things go well we should have like 4-5 strong states that will essentially be the proto-nations. So I'm thinking France, Lothgaria, Germany, Swabia, and Italy(mostly the region known as lombardia). Over the years Germany and France would eat Lothgaria, and Germany would eat Swabia in what is OTL(TTL)'s German lands. Italy wold move south into Naples and Sicily. Either way that leads to another colonizing power in France with all that coast
Another Idea what about the English lands? Anyone got any ideas because outside that Welsh King Arthur I have no idea what to do with it. but if it gets united then they can colonize as well.

[Mathuen]

OOC: Yeah, I'm doing OOC even though I've never done an IC post. What is the current situation in North and South America? I'm going to make a B_Munro style map based on this thread.

[robbiej]

There's a Chinese-colonised USA analogue called Fusang in North America, which stretches from the West Coast to New England and there is a place called Al-Anhuac (colonised by Muslims) in South America.

Thats actually it.

[Bergil]

There was also talk of how east coast natives like the Iroquois would have been too organized to conquer by hypothetical European conquerors, implying that they did well (implicitly because Chinese technology and ideas got there before any conquerors ITTL).

[KeresAcheron]

Numerous ancient texts show the Hellenic peoples of had developed some mechinical steam devises. This mainly failed to industrialise because of lack of other technology achievements and excessive slave labour that stunted innovation. Could there be some way of using this combined with the later roman empire to start an industrial revolution then (with British natural resources as well as a steadily declining access to foreign slaves removing those obstackles?).

I doubt the stronger Fusang west coastlands would provide much of problem as they are counterbalanced by weaker West Coast Al-Anhuac natives.