Great Lakes Fleet

[NothingNow]

Originally Posted by David S Poepoe

I doubt anything really large will be built. Very poor return on one's investment. The likely limitations would be transitability via canals. What comes to mind in the Great War naval theater of the Adriatic Sea.

Yeah, agreed.

I was thinking at most like 14,000 tons displacement for any major warships, built on the same general plan as the Illinois or Maine-class (with allowances for differences in water density, and the weight of new equipment.) So, not very big for the era (120m long, with a 22m beam, drawing say 8-8.5m depending on the season.) In terms of performance, well, they're glorified floating batteries, and 14-15kts is plenty, and I'm doubtful they'd even need to be that fast in service.

They'd likely have just enough space for 4x12-15" guns in twin turrets, with 6-8" guns for the secondary battery and a mix of say a dozen 3" guns or QF 6pdr guns, a half-dozen QF 1pdr Pom-poms and a smattering of Maxim guns for defense, and average protection when built.

Lighter monitors would be too light to handle the weather, and too unprotected to handle their role, which would pretty much be shore bombardment, and siege work, with the odd duel against their counterparts. Everything else would be smaller, at less than say 3000tons displacement, mostly being Destroyers, minesweepers and Torpedo Boats, with the odd protected cruiser.

[sloreck]

I think you'd go for speedy light forces. A few monitor types for bombardment, but no armor will win against major land based artillery, and only a small part of the "2-bordered" lakes are out of artillery range. Subs, although mentioned in the Turtledove WWI book, are not practical for the lakes. Waters are both restricted and shallow for good ops. On the US side any shipping will stay fairly close inshore to the US side, if only to avoid Canadian artillery - not a good place for subs to attack. Also even WWI tech a/c and airships will make life miserable for subs.

I'd see the lakes as a scenario where close inshore would be owned by whichever side had artillery on that shore, and the only spots seriously contested would be the "centers" out of shore gun range. Transit between the lakes would be difficult if not impossible due to choke pints covered by artillery &/or mines.

IMHO this scenario would mean that while some facilities, like ports, would be where they are OTL any cities like Buffalo NY that would be potential targets for cross-border/cross lake bombardment or susceptible to naval raids will NOT get the industrial development of OTL. You'll see development of places close to where things were OTL, but further back from the shore.

[Hoist40]

While fresh water does not support as much weigh as salt water these ships would also not require as much weight in fuel, water, food, stores nor need as extensive living accommodation as ocean going ships. Never being more then a few hours from a friendly port would also mean that the savings in weight could be put into speed.

So I would think that speed would be faster then the equivalent ocean going ship and they would race to engage or retreat as needed back to their home bases

[Beedok]

Well Ontario will probably end up a Canadian Lake, while Erie goes US. Huron and Superior depend on if the US industry along Michigan can be bottled up successfully or not. Probably would get stuck in there considering they couldn't eactly amass a fleet so a fairly small force could hold them off. I'm guessing Georgian Bay would have a lot more cities along it.

[rudebadger]

Here's something else to consider. Winter .

In the colder years the lakes freeze over completely and in milder times there is an ice covering from the shoreline out to X miles. Certainly enough to help close up those chokepoints I mentioned before.The ice should really mess up minefields and keep all but the largest ships tied up in port 'til the spring.

i don't imagine that the USN or RN Grand Lakes Fleets will keep flotilla's of icebreakers on hand to lead the fleets into battle.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Well Ontario will probably end up a Canadian Lake, while Erie goes US. Huron and Superior depend on if the US industry along Michigan can be bottled up successfully or not. Probably would get stuck in there considering they couldn't eactly amass a fleet so a fairly small force could hold them off. I'm guessing Georgian Bay would have a lot more cities along it.

Why? I dont follow you.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Why? I dont follow you.

Efforts to get more shipbuilding abilities along the great lakes, plus less people living along lake Erie.