Map Thread X

[False Dmitri]

Here is one of the less interesting (from a borders standpoint) states in the Affiliated States of Boreoamerica, which you can find in my sig. There you can also find a basic history of Vermont in TTL.

[Minchandre]

Originally Posted by False Dmitri

That appears to be areas of Druze and Shiite population, if I had to guess.

Druze (purple), Christian (tan), and Shiite (green).

The map is practically perfect. And quite a happier world than ours, if I may say so.

I don't know if it's fair to assume that their world is significantly happier than ours. Have you looked at Lebanon recently? Lebanon, which has suffered internal distress since being established? Lebanon, which suffered perhaps the worst civil war in history, with something like 2% of their population dead and 30% injured and a similar number displaced? While I'm not saying that that TL is bad, I'm just pointing out that creating a multicultural nation in the Middle East isn't necessarily going to be sunshine and roses. And that's even without touching on what the Arab states may be doing to each other without Israel to blame for all of their problems.

[Iori]

Originally Posted by Minchandre

Lebanon, which suffered perhaps the worst civil war in history, with something like 2% of their population dead and 30% injured and a similar number displaced?

Lebanon is nowhere near being that, hell it's maybe in the Top 10, but that's it.

China takes the cake in this regard, what with having multiple Civil Wars with deathtolls measured in the millions.

[WhatIsAUserName]

Originally Posted by Minchandre

Lebanon, which suffered perhaps the worst civil war in history, with something like 2% of their population dead and 30% injured and a similar number displaced?

2%? That's a mistake, right? The post-Yuan civil war in China saw up to 33% of the population dead, and the post-Ming civil war saw up to 25% of the population dead (but the population was larger during the latter period so casualties were higher).

2% seems like an unfortunate blip in that context.

[Iori]

Originally Posted by WhatIsAUserName

2%? That's a mistake, right? The post-Yuan civil war in China saw up to 33% of the population dead, and the post-Ming civil war saw up to 25% of the population dead (but the population was larger during the latter period so casualties were higher).

2% seems like an unfortunate blip in that context.

Indeed, hell the American Civil War killed just under 2% of the population, but we don't treat it as if it was some historically significant disaster.

[Looseheadprop]

Originally Posted by Iori

Indeed, hel the American Civil War killed just under 2% of the population, but we don't treat it as if it was some historically significant disaster.

yes you do

[False Dmitri]

Originally Posted by Minchandre

I don't know if it's fair to assume that their world is significantly happier than ours. Have you looked at Lebanon recently? Lebanon, which has suffered internal distress since being established? Lebanon, which suffered perhaps the worst civil war in history, with something like 2% of their population dead and 30% injured and a similar number displaced? While I'm not saying that that TL is bad, I'm just pointing out that creating a multicultural nation in the Middle East isn't necessarily going to be sunshine and roses. And that's even without touching on what the Arab states may be doing to each other without Israel to blame for all of their problems.

Maybe "happy" is the wrong word, but the problems seem a little less intractable. There are models in place for governing a tense multiethnic republic; Israel/Palestine is its own unsolvable Rubik's Cube of a thing.

Originally Posted by Iori

Indeed, hell the American Civil War killed just under 2% of the population, but we don't treat it as if it was some historically significant disaster.

is the only response I have here.

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by Iori

Indeed, hell the American Civil War killed just under 2% of the population, but we don't treat it as if it was some historically significant disaster.

You don't think much about the debt it caused either.

[Iori]

Originally Posted by False Dmitri

is the only response I have here.

We as in people who pay attention to history like most people on this site.

Though even Americans in general never consider it to be something where huge amounts of people died.

[President Lenin]

Munro, how do you add numbers and text to your maps and manage to save it as a PNG? I can't seem to do this on Vista Paint.

[False Dmitri]

Originally Posted by Iori

We as in people who pay attention to history like most people on this site.

Though even Americans in general never consider it to be something where huge amounts of people died.

I really don't understand. Yes, we do, and yes, they do.

[Iori]

Originally Posted by False Dmitri

I really don't understand. Yes, we do, and yes, they do.

No historian in their right mind will tell you the American Civil War was one of the bloodiest wars with super high death tolls in all of history.

Secondlay, I as an American can tell you that no, the death toll is not taught to have been exceptionally high, if it's ever taught at all.

[Mathuen]

Maybe not in the NW, but in the states that were in the war that is indeed focused on.

[Martin23230]

Originally Posted by False Dmitri

I really don't understand. Yes, we do, and yes, they do.

I might as well add, from a non-US standpoint, that I agree with what Iori is trying to say.

Yes, the US Civil War was indeed a war, arguably an important one. But it wasn't exactly of world-defining importance. The point is if any impartial historian was to make a list all wars and conflicts in world history and try to rank them by their "importance" or their effect on the world then I doubt the US Civil War would be in the top 10, even the top 20-30. The American Revolution/Independence War I would suspect would be up there somewhere, but could you really say that the US Civil War had that big an impact on the world? Especially as it basically ended status quo ante bellum; if the CSA had won then you might have a point. But honestly when it comes to global history there were many, many more important events.

Plus this is getting of the original topic which was purely casualties, and I would also agree that when it comes to considering them it was not "a historically significant disaster", there have been far, far, worse things that have happened in human history.

Originally Posted by Mathuen

Maybe not in the NW, but in the states that were in the war that is indeed focused on.

Well obviously, that's like saying that the English Civil War was bad for England. But would it really rank on a list of historically significant disasters?

[decker]

Originally Posted by JJDXB

I LOVE THIS MAP, TELL ME EVERYTHING

-What font did you use?
-Did you use inkscape?
-Is this a wiki commons basemap?

I cannot say I love this map enough.

Thanks,
Here is the base map I worked about 20h with Inkscape
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ma...erritories.svg
The fonts are the ones from the base map.
I don't mind showing my base maps, because I think that some people like me would really benefit from using Inkscape and wiki common svg maps...
(I'm not talking about Photoshop / Gimp experts !)

Originally Posted by Thande

That is one of the best maps anyone has ever posted on here. I love it when people get the 'late 20th century informative map' style down so well because it really hits you right in the suspension of disbelief and half makes you uncertain you haven't just accidentally walked into an ATL. Excellent work.

Thanks, but I must strongly disagree, I'm happy you like it but many far better maps have been posted here. There are many techniques that I don't master at all in map making. But all these good comments make me want to try harder each time.

Originally Posted by B_Munro

Bravo! If there was an "alternate middle easts" map contest, I can hardly imagine anyone topping this! A mapping Turtledove award nominee to be sure.
Bruce

Thanks B, it is such a hard subject. I wasn't sure it was a good idea to work on it, but as I'm really taking the most benevolent perspective, I gave it a try.

Originally Posted by CaliBoy1990

Simply marvelous, decker. Very well done, and nicely thought out, too. Care to expand on the scenario a bit, if you don't mind?

Maybe I'll try to expand the TL, but that is not my strong point...

Originally Posted by Sub Lord Hawk

Amazing!
The only thing I can't work out is what are the blotches or colour on the map?

Originally Posted by False Dmitri

That appears to be areas of Druze and Shiite population, if I had to guess.

Originally Posted by Minchandre

Druze (purple), Christian (tan), and Shiite (green).

Thanks, yes that's right. There are no colors for Sunni and Jews because they are everywhere. The colors for the 3 minorities show regions of higher density of those minorities.

Originally Posted by False Dmitri

The map is practically perfect. And quite a happier world than ours, if I may say so.

OTL is a real disaster, I do believe there is a chance in TTL that both the Jews and Palestinians would be better off, but it is really hard to say. I don't think it could manage to be worse however.

Originally Posted by Minchandre

I don't know if it's fair to assume that their world is significantly happier than ours. Have you looked at Lebanon recently? [...]

Probably that with a less unbalanced demographics than Lebanon, no Syrian bully of a brother messing things up and a better democratic evolution, this would be better off than Lebanon...

Lebanon :
Sunni 27% -> In my demographics of RoJ 39% makes them a clear Arab leader, to politically oppose the mostly western Jews (RoJ 45%). -> better balance of powers.
Shia 27% -> My 3% makes them a clear minority, they will align on Sunni in most cases.
Druze 5% -> My 4% same as Lebanon
Christians 41% -> My 8% makes them a clear minority, they will align on Sunni or Jews as seen fit. Moreover in Lebanon they are so numorous that they break in denominations - 41% = 21% Maronite, 8% Greek Orthodox, 5% Greek Catholics, 7 % Other Christians. So even though they have plenty denominations in RoJ, there low numbers force them to unite if they want to be number one minority (the third player, arbitrator between Jews and Muslims).

Thanks again all of you, hope you liked pies !

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by President Lenin

Munro, how do you add numbers and text to your maps and manage to save it as a PNG? I can't seem to do this on Vista Paint.

I dunno: I generally _start_ with PNG basemaps and use MS paint (still struggling with GIMP): what precisely is going wrong?

Bruce

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by President Lenin

Munro, how do you add numbers and text to your maps and manage to save it as a PNG? I can't seem to do this on Vista Paint.

Vista Paint, as in Windows Vista's MSPaint?

I thought the W7 MSPaint was the same.

[Lascupa0788]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

Vista Paint, as in Windows Vista's MSPaint?

I thought the W7 MSPaint was the same.

No, it's got an annoying way of sorting things and a bad colour interface, and some versions have reportedly messed up one thing or another.

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Lascupa0788

No, it's got an annoying way of sorting things and a bad colour interface, and some versions have reportedly messed up one thing or another.

I'm glad I moved to Paint.NET. Although not being able to draw straight lines seamlessly with the pencil tool is a pain.

[Ephraim Ben Raphael]

I want to post a map, but I don't want it to be the last post of the page. So to avoid that fate I am hereby posting the last post of the page, so that the next post on the next page will be my map.

PS: I Love decker's Republic of Jordan map, just sayin.