A brave new world: the dinosaurs not quite wiped out.....

[Archon of Thessaly]

Originally Posted by Enigmajones

No it's not meant in such a way at all, but all POD's outside the control of man are ASB, by definition.

no offence taken- its just that i hate my POD being compared to aliens, space bats and time travel stories!

[Archon of Thessaly]

Central Europe, 49 million years ago, Evening

As the blazing sun retreats, its great rays of light reduced to a mere trickle. The forest is cloaked in darkness as trees become dark, towering monoliths looming over the damp world below, turning it from a quiet, dangerous world ruled by grotesque, intelligent predators into a pitch black, twilight, alien world, where strange, Martian creatures of all shape and size emerge from their lairs to hunt, mate to live.

Beneath the canopy, in a secluded, sheltered cave of broken twigs and thick, tangled undergrowth overlooked by tall, jagged piece of rock, a mornful group of Reptiles slink home, greeted by a chorus of excited cries of baby Agilodon expecting food. Hunkered down next to them, two old females, there eyes rimmed by lack of sleep and exhaustion get up and walk over to the returning group, there faces showing what we might call " relief."
Even reptiles dislike nanny duty it seems.

The fact that Agilodon even care for their young is an evolutionary step in itself( 1).Most reptiles abandon their young at birth, leaving them exposed to the elements, expecting that at least some of them will survive.
But not Agilodon. They know that young are vital and have developed an advanced system of almost miniature " state care." Pack members have specialised roles, some are hunters, some strategists and some " nannies" in charge of protecting the young and teaching them how to survive. This is vital in explaining why these animals have survived. Firstly, it massively increases the survival rate, so the population gradually increases, passing on their traits and advice to their young. Secondly, it develops the clan members emotional attachment to each other to a level where they almost care for each other- and helping the advancement of speech.

But the last factor is, perhaps, the least obvious. These young dinosaurs cannot travel or be carried around far- after all, Agilodon still lack opposable thumbs. Instead, the clans are forced to remain on this land, trapped in a trait of their own making. And this creates a vicious circle as, since they are trapped on one piece of ground, the population increases, forcing them to be more trapped. This increases population for resources that usually could be occasionally passed by hunter gathering packs. This explosion in population and conflict forces the animals to adapt to methods, new strategies, new ways of thinking.

It will become a common feature in these creatures timeline. Competition.
Because competition= ingenuity.

But this is far away from these females minds. Instead they mourn the loss of one of their own, a young female they themselves brought up, taught.
Maybe even loved, if these animals could understand such a concept. They cry and huddle noses, sharing their grief together as one, united, strong group. A group that will fight, hunt, die for each other. Comeraderie.

This is why they will survive and others fail.

And the reason for their eventual downfall.

1: Yes other animals- especially birds care for their young, but its strictly a parent affair and in small groups. And they never stay with each other, abandoning them when their ready. They lack the grouping or organisational skills that the Agilodon posses.

[Archon of Thessaly]

yes another long one- hope you survived the wait!

[Archon of Thessaly]

well.... what do you think about this TL so far? is it plausible?

[Danth]

Wolves only more prehistoric
I like still
Again great story mate

[altwere]

I like it and was happy to see it.

[Archon of Thessaly]

Originally Posted by Danth

Wolves only more prehistoric
I like still
Again great story mate

Thanks! Wolves do give me much inspiration- though perhaps the pack bit is about as related as they'll ever be.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Archon of Thessaly

Thanks! Wolves do give me much inspiration- though perhaps the pack bit is about as related as they'll ever be.

That reminds me what about feathers? If they have enought then they may be able to live further north during the more modern era

[Archon of Thessaly]

Originally Posted by Danth

That reminds me what about feathers? If they have enought then they may be able to live further north during the more modern era

True..... but you forget there wont be that much of food that north to sustain them! perhaps other creatures will occupy that niche..

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Archon of Thessaly

True..... but you forget there wont be that much of food that north to sustain them! perhaps other creatures will occupy that niche..

Like wolves

[Archon of Thessaly]

Originally Posted by Danth

Like wolves

yes... like wolves..... who wont evolve..... so stop talking about wolves.....its irratating

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Archon of Thessaly

yes... like wolves..... who wont evolve..... so stop talking about wolves.....its irratating

at least I dint mention the:Race from world war now that would have been annoying

Anyway I look forward to further updates

[Flubber]

Originally Posted by Archon of Thessaly

is it plausible?

Given your stated objective, not in the slightest. The list of scientific specialties that would first gasp, then groan, and then wince at this "time line" can not be underestimated.

There are so many problem with both your idea and presentation that I scarcely know where to begin. Just choosing a fairly recent example, what would become central "France" was underwater 79 million years ago.

As with the many many problems, I scarcely know where to begin pointing you for advice because so much is so very wrong. I guess a good place to begin would be with Stephan Jay Gould's Wonderful Life as it might be able to explain to you the long term random nature of evolution.

Good luck because you'll need megatons of it.

[Archon of Thessaly]

Originally Posted by Flubber

Given your stated objective, not in the slightest. The list of scientific specialties that would first gasp, then groan, and then wince at this "time line" can not be underestimated.

There are so many problem with both your idea and presentation that I scarcely know where to begin. Just choosing a fairly recent example, what would become central "France" was underwater 79 million years ago.

As with the many many problems, I scarcely know where to begin pointing you for advice because so much is so very wrong. I guess a good place to begin would be with Stephan Jay Gould's Wonderful Life as it might be able to explain to you the long term random nature of evolution.

Good luck because you'll need megatons of it.

France? oops...... i meant Germany!( anyway it could be anwhere-america or Europe generally) dammit! oh well i'll edit that.
And thanks for the advice! as for the randomness of evolution....as i've mention there are patterns that occur time and again in evolution. This TL is based upon how other animals adapted to each situation ( including Hominids and Agilodons ancestors)
but anyway- thanks! hope you enjoy!

[Archon of Thessaly]

Originally Posted by Danth

at least I dint mention the:Race from world war now that would have been annoying

Anyway I look forward to further updates

Hay! i saw that!

[yourworstnightmare]

Originally Posted by Archon of Thessaly

France? oops...... i meant Germany!( anyway it could be anwhere-america or Europe generally) dammit! oh well i'll edit that.
And thanks for the advice! as for the randomness of evolution....as i've mention there are patterns that occur time and again in evolution. This TL is based upon how other animals adapted to each situation ( including Hominids and Agilodons ancestors)
but anyway- thanks! hope you enjoy!

However, these patterns of yours happen because niches are left empty due to previous extinctions, which allow new organisms to take their place. Which organisms take which place usually tend to be a little random, since it has much to do with which organism happened to be at the right place at the right time.

[Zireael]

Do the Agilodon exist only in TTL or in OTL too?

BTW, great thread, subbed!

[Sven]

Originally Posted by Flubber

The list of scientific specialties that would first gasp, then groan, and then wince at this "time line" can not be underestimated.

The number who would gasp, wince and groan at melodrama like this is equally staggering.

Originally Posted by Flubber

There are so many problem with both your idea and presentation that I scarcely know where to begin. Just choosing a fairly recent example, what would become central "France" was underwater 79 million years ago.

The problem is that 79 million years ago wasn't the Eocene: it was the Late Cretaceous (Campanian stage). He meant to be writing "49 million years ago" this whole time. You'll notice that much of Central France was an archipelago during the Eocene (actually, some of it was above sea level 79 million years ago), so there's no reason why his story can't take place in Central France.

Originally Posted by Flubber

As with the many many problems, I scarcely know where to begin pointing you for advice because so much is so very wrong. I guess a good place to begin would be with Stephan Jay Gould's Wonderful Life as it might be able to explain to you the long term random nature of evolution.

Archon's been drilled already on the myriad problems with such deep, evolutionary PoD's. I know, because I participated in the drilling. But, you can't seriously expect Archon to manage all the historical contingencies of a 65-million-year timeline as a solo project! The options are either to grant the writer lots of leeway with butterfly nets and such, or to not have dinosaur timelines at all.

[Archon of Thessaly]

Originally Posted by Zireael

Do the Agilodon exist only in TTL or in OTL too?

BTW, great thread, subbed!

alas no. i based its name on another raptor that lived in the Creatacious called Agilosaurus and took the name from there. All dinosaurs in this Tl except of course Troodon are products of my own imagination.

[Archon of Thessaly]

Originally Posted by Sven

The number who would gasp, wince and groan at melodrama like this is equally staggering.



The problem is that 79 million years ago wasn't the Eocene: it was the Late Cretaceous (Campanian stage). He meant to be writing "49 million years ago" this whole time. You'll notice that much of Central France was an archipelago during the Eocene (actually, some of it was above sea level 79 million years ago), so there's no reason why his story can't take place in Central France.



Archon's been drilled already on the myriad problems with such deep, evolutionary PoD's. I know, because I participated in the drilling. But, you can't seriously expect Archon to manage all the historical contingencies of a 65-million-year timeline as a solo project! The options are either to grant the writer lots of leeway with butterfly nets and such, or to not have dinosaur timelines at all.

I never thought iw ould say this burt thanks! ( i didnt notice till now i put 79 million instead of 49 million-oops!)

As a writer i can claim ( with limititions of corse) artistic license.
As for the subject of butterfly nets, a problem i had is the world then was A LOT MORE CONNECTED so most continents were linked anyhow. Also, Troodon only lived in N america and mongolia. Getting it to africa or a remote island would be difficult without taking too many artistic liberties. Also, in order for it to evolve, i needed it moving about or otherwise europe or america would be overpopulasted with them and they would die out. ( and finally, i figure S america would be devastated by the meriorite and too isolated to poduce and evolve an intelligent rapror i'm afraid)