The official discussion thread: 1918 - The German Navy sorties one last time -V.IV-

[ijnfleetadmiral]

No problem...now give us MORE!

On the side, here is a VERY nice drawing of the No. 13-class (the Yashima-class ITTL):

http://imageshack.us/f/337/bbijnnumber13class1928.png/

-Matt

[Eternity]

Originally Posted by ijnfleetadmiral

On the side, here is a VERY nice drawing of the No. 13-class (the Yashima-class ITTL):

http://imageshack.us/f/337/bbijnnumber13class1928.png/

-Matt

I've got a drawing of one of them..... Of course, mine was done in ms paint! lol

Currently working on June/July etc as the next 'block' were what caused the main re-write..... You'll either love or hate it! (Love I hope )

[Pax Britannia]

The tension is building nicely.

[sharlin]

Magnificent updates, good to see that Adolf chose a career of comedy and standup and this intrigued me too:

In Sydney, Australia, the Sydney Harbour Bridge is opened to the public by the Labour Premier of New South Wales, Jack Lang, as the widest long-span bridge in the world and also Sydney's tallest structure. However, just as Lang is about to cut the ribbon, a man in military uniform rides in on a horse and slashes the ribbon with his sword while declaring the Sydney Harbour Bridge as open in the name of the people of New South Wales. The man is promptly arrested and found to be one Francis de Groot, a member of a right-wing paramilitary group called the New Guard who are opposed to Lang's leftist policies and resentful of the fact that a member of the Royal Family had not been asked to open the bridge. After the ribbon is hastily re-tied, Lang opens the bridge officially to a cheering crowd, but many will remember De Groot's antics as the highlight of the day.


Never heard of this incident until you put it in your story so I learned something new today Much obliged!

[Eternity]

Originally Posted by sharlin

++Snip++

Never heard of this incident until you put it in your story so I learned something new today Much obliged!

I try to be educational as well as just making things up

Actually, a lot of the details in my TL are factual at the moment (As there have been no overly ++major++ divergences). One of the reasons I started writing - Apart from giving me an outlet for ideas - was so that I had to research things and could learn more about history.

Of course, I rely heavily on either monthly or yearly historical events calanders for the 'overview' bits, then focus in on those that interest me, so not everything of interest is picked up as it would have to be listed on one of those source lists to begin with.

EDIT: Did you watch that youtube link I posted about Hitler?

[Eternity]

Re: The update.

Tiger - I figure that the IINS Tiger should receive the refit first, over IINS Lion as the Tiger is the workhorse of the fleet, and received improper repairs after both Jutland and Texal (IMTL at any rate). Hope the rest of my logic is acceptable to everybody for the political/economic purposes behind the refits.

Austro-Hungary - I am going down a different road to the previous version of the TL (Which kinda collapsed around this point ), so hopefully this is more acceptable all round.

Mackensens - I am sticking with the refit as is There are a few reasons for the installation of 15" guns onboard the ships, instead of the retaining of the 13.8" guns. Mostly, this is because of the following:
Colony Class LBBs = 11.1" (5x Units)
Derfflinger Class BCs = 12" (2x Units)
Mackensen Class BCs = 13.8" (2x Units)
Bayern Class BBs = 15" (2x Units)
Scharnhorst Class BCs = 15" (2x Units)
Bismarck Class BBs = 16.5" (4x Units)

.....

.....

Do you have it yet?

.....

Logistics and hitting power! The HSF wants to 'thin out' her supply lines, and having 5x calibres of main shells is pretty dumb when you only have 17 units! Pushing the Mackensens up to 15" removes one calibre entirely, and gives them more hitting power.

The Derfflingers are already training ships, and thus, don't need to be considered so much and this leaves only 3x calibres (For the moment anyway!)

On the subject of Derfflingers, I just had a thought which I will open to the floor:
What would the potential outcomes be for the German navy if she pulled off the 12" guns on the Derfflingers and stuck on triple 11.1" turrets, like those on the Colony Class LBBs?

You get 12x barrels as opposed to the origional 8x barrels, although of a less powerful gun (But one which still has superb characteristics, and hits above it's calibre). If memory serves, Admiral Tirpitz was all for installing 5x twin 11.1" turrets onto the Derfflingers when they were designed, but the navy wanted 12" guns, and so one turret was removed to acomplish this, and maintain the required weights.

Thanks

[Eternity]

ok. There is it. The love it or hate it post.....

Hope you like it and be gentle please.

Notes for it:

• Farahilde and Jager Kuhbauer - I made up the names. They are completly fictional, and if your name is one of them, then I am very very sorry and it is pure coincidence
• Bonus points if you clue the reason for that type of pistol - WITHOUT reading the link
• Sorry for making the Naradna Odbrana and Black Hand the villans again, but I had to pick somebody, and their reasons are still valid. Also once a bad guy, always a bad guy
• I am assuming a Kaiser's bodybuard is made up of officers, hence the medals awarded

EDIT: I should add that depending on the reception of August 1932, I will be adding in tweaks, as I have just realized I have missed a few things out (Non-critical). The quantity depends on the reception

[abc123]

Hmm, can you provide us with more details about "Single Monarchy", political organisation etc...?

[sharlin]

Great updates although the Tiger is HIDIOUS with that new funnel!

[Eternity]

Originally Posted by sharlin

Great updates although the Tiger is HIDIOUS with that new funnel!

I quite like her like that though

[ijnfleetadmiral]

I, for one, liked August 1932...now let's have September through December and all of 1933!

-Matt

[Eternity]

Ok, I said I forgot to add something in. I have done this now, and a copy is below:

-------------------------------------------

August 16th 1932
Late in the evening in Moscow, a rather dishevelled Comrade Artuzov is dragged from a dim room where he has been held for what seems like weeks (But in reality is only a day) and into an office, where he is dropped into a chair opposite a huge desk. Behind that desk sits Stalin, and he is not looking happy, and for a couple of minutes he just stairs at him, while one of the guards standing behind him noisily plays with his pistol. Meanwhile Artuzov nervously sits still and tries not to rub his hands together in fear. Just as Artuzov is about to cry out in terror and beg for the bullet he is sure is coming, Stalin speaks:

'Comrade Artuzov, you have failed me. Not only have you failed to kill Kaiser Otto, but the ignorant peasants of the Austro-Hungarian Empire have also united behind him after your botched your attempt to assassinate him. What explanation do you have for this?'
'Comrade Stalin' he replies, 'The assassin was chosen as he had lost everything but his sister and was angry at the Kaiser for this before the riots that injured her. This is the reason he was chosen.' He pauses to wet his lips before continuing 'He was not meant to strike at Kaiser Otto then, and no order had been given. He was visiting his sister in hospital when the Kaiser unexpectedly turned up, so he took the opportunity on his own initiative.' He finished.
'Is that so. Do you have any good news for me?'
'Yes Comrade Stalin.' Artuzov quickly replies, sensing that this is probably the only chance he will have to save his skin 'Thanks to the care we took in arranging the operation, the Austro-Hungarian investigators believe that unknown persons and organizations in Albania or Montenegro are behind the plot, and anybody who can connect the plot to Russia is long dead. This means that we cannot be touched for this tragic event.'
'You are sure?'
'Of course Comrade Stalin. If it were any different, would Austro-Hungary make a deal with Italy, and allow Albania and Montenegro be invaded?'
'Perhaps. They may have an agenda there of their own, and wish to put us at ease, so when the attack comes we are unprepared.'
'I am sure not.' Replies Artuzov, breaking out in a cold sweat 'Our spies and informants would have told us by now if it were any different.'

To this Stalin deepens his brow in thought for a few seconds before saying 'That is true. You may go.' and waving his hand. At that, the two guards behind Comrade Artuzov lift him up and carry him out the door. The second it closes, they drop him in a heap on the floor and walk away.

Comrade Artuzov has survived his talk with Stalin by the skin of his teeth, and is safe - For now.

[HMS Warspite]

Originally Posted by Eternity

Re: The update.

Tiger - I figure that the IINS Tiger should receive the refit first, over IINS Lion as the Tiger is the workhorse of the fleet, and received improper repairs after both Jutland and Texal (IMTL at any rate). Hope the rest of my logic is acceptable to everybody for the political/economic purposes behind the refits.

Austro-Hungary - I am going down a different road to the previous version of the TL (Which kinda collapsed around this point ), so hopefully this is more acceptable all round.

Mackensens - I am sticking with the refit as is There are a few reasons for the installation of 15" guns onboard the ships, instead of the retaining of the 13.8" guns. Mostly, this is because of the following:
Colony Class LBBs = 11.1" (5x Units)
Derfflinger Class BCs = 12" (2x Units)
Mackensen Class BCs = 13.8" (2x Units)
Bayern Class BBs = 15" (2x Units)
Scharnhorst Class BCs = 15" (2x Units)
Bismarck Class BBs = 16.5" (4x Units)

.....

.....

Do you have it yet?

.....

Logistics and hitting power! The HSF wants to 'thin out' her supply lines, and having 5x calibres of main shells is pretty dumb when you only have 17 units! Pushing the Mackensens up to 15" removes one calibre entirely, and gives them more hitting power.

The Derfflingers are already training ships, and thus, don't need to be considered so much and this leaves only 3x calibres (For the moment anyway!)

On the subject of Derfflingers, I just had a thought which I will open to the floor:
What would the potential outcomes be for the German navy if she pulled off the 12" guns on the Derfflingers and stuck on triple 11.1" turrets, like those on the Colony Class LBBs?

You get 12x barrels as opposed to the origional 8x barrels, although of a less powerful gun (But one which still has superb characteristics, and hits above it's calibre). If memory serves, Admiral Tirpitz was all for installing 5x twin 11.1" turrets onto the Derfflingers when they were designed, but the navy wanted 12" guns, and so one turret was removed to acomplish this, and maintain the required weights.

Thanks

Basically teh Derfflinger class was an end of the line development, as were the also still existing Kaisar and König class ships in the reserve fleet. These 12 inch gunners were not very heavily upgraded adn their main artillery was more an end of the line type, only continued as coastal guns after their deactivation. So 12 inch could be considered being a deleted calliber in the ocean going fleet.

13.8 inch wopuld be usefull still, for simmilar reasons in the German Fleet, just to make up the existing inventory of this gun, not to be continued after the Mackensen class was phased out, or with a possible regunning of the underarmed (only six main guns, where nine lightweight barrel 13.8 inch could have been used as well!) Scharnhorst Class with a new type of this more effective calliber, 15 inch was to be an end of the line product as well, since 16.5 inch was the main heavy gun of the future, not the old model and relatively small shell using 15 inch of the German inventory.

This would give Germany only two main and two secondary types of heavy calliber: 13.8 and 16.5 inch for battleships and 9.4 and 11.1 inch for heavy cruisers (The use of the purchases ex K.u.K Cruisers, with the new Krupp 9.5 inch/55 - 24 cm K3 gun, both on wheeled and later railroad carriage). 12 inch and 15 inch were using older parts and stock, being phased out, with the aging of their platforms. Only continued as coastal battery stock later on. The newer models of the guns would fire a relatively heavy shell for their size, compensating both in shellweight and capabilities to older heaviers callibers.

[Eternity]

Originally Posted by HMS Warspite

Basically the Derfflinger class was an end of the line development, as were the also still existing Kaisar and König class ships in the reserve fleet. These 12 inch gunners were not very heavily upgraded adn their main artillery was more an end of the line type, only continued as coastal guns after their deactivation. So 12 inch could be considered being a deleted calliber in the ocean going fleet.

13.8 inch wopuld be usefull still, for simmilar reasons in the German Fleet, just to make up the existing inventory of this gun, not to be continued after the Mackensen class was phased out, or with a possible regunning of the underarmed (only six main guns, where nine lightweight barrel 13.8 inch could have been used as well!) Scharnhorst Class with a new type of this more effective calliber, 15 inch was to be an end of the line product as well, since 16.5 inch was the main heavy gun of the future, not the old model and relatively small shell using 15 inch of the German inventory.

This would give Germany only two main and two secondary types of heavy calliber: 13.8 and 16.5 inch for battleships and 9.4 and 11.1 inch for heavy cruisers (The use of the purchases ex K.u.K Cruisers, with the new Krupp 9.5 inch/55 - 24 cm K3 gun, both on wheeled and later railroad carriage). 12 inch and 15 inch were using older parts and stock, being phased out, with the aging of their platforms. Only continued as coastal battery stock later on. The newer models of the guns would fire a relatively heavy shell for their size, compensating both in shellweight and capabilities to older heaviers callibers.

I see where you are coming from with the standardization of main guns, but I would like to point out a flaw in your idea. The Bayern Class, which have been rebuilt, mount 15" guns as well as the Scharnhorst Class. By upgrading the Mackensens alone, I remove one shell calibre, whereas I would need to work on two other classes to remove the 15" calibre. Also, the Germans know that most major navies are settling in for 15", 16" or 18" as their primary weapon (IJN & UK = 16"/18", Italy & France = 15", USSR & US = 16"). Why would she accept a lower calibre (And therefore on paper more inferiour) shell? National prestege says she MUST follow the trend and go for bigger shells.

[HMS Warspite]

Originally Posted by Eternity

I see where you are coming from with the standardization of main guns, but I would like to point out a flaw in your idea. The Bayern Class, which have been rebuilt, mount 15" guns as well as the Scharnhorst Class. By upgrading the Mackensens alone, I remove one shell calibre, whereas I would need to work on two other classes to remove the 15" calibre. Also, the Germans know that most major navies are settling in for 15", 16" or 18" as their primary weapon (IJN & UK = 16"/18", Italy & France = 15", USSR & US = 16"). Why would she accept a lower calibre (And therefore on paper more inferiour) shell? National prestege says she MUST follow the trend and go for bigger shells.

Inferior on paper, I can agree, but in reality the smaller calliber, with high velosity shell's and longer range outranges the older marks of larger calliber, mostly shorter barreled guns. In the OTL the 28cm/54,5 SK C-34 gun of the Scharnhorst Class outranged the older 15 inch/42 of the British and even the new 38cm/52 SK C-34 of the Bismarck Class, so it could have its bennefits.

Alternately, an option would be to not upgrade the Bayern with new guns, as their old ones were already good enough and have Scharnhorst be equipped with nine lightweight new guns of the slightly smaller, but much more advanced 13.8 gun (dubbed 35cm/57 SK C-36, with new shells of heavy weight equall to the older 800 kg 15 inch shell of the Bayern Class.) A nine gun battleship is more a challenge than a weak one with only six. Due to the small difference in size between the 15 andf 13.8 inch capabilities, the ship with more guns is prefered for political reasons, as it simply looked more powerfull. Germans were sensitive toward this motive.

Mackensen can be left as it was, but may be used to test the new guns in advance of putting them on the newly constructed Scharnhorst, although still using their original turrets for economical reasons. Rebuilding the turrets for the larger 15 inch heavy guns of the 38cm/52 SK C-34 type is not recommended, as the barbettes were too small and needed widening, something requireing a new hull, which is tha same as building a new ship by the way. Bayern already had the needed wide bnarbettes, so was a logical choice, if proceeding with upgunning the ship. he central point is that the budget and capacity of the Naval Infrastructure is more tempting toward the newer 13.8 inch leigthweight guns (as already was done in the OTL in the USA, were the Iowa class had to ship new leigthweight 16 inch/50 guns, as the older heavy 16 inch/50 Mk1 was too big and heavy.) Poliotically the German Navy would therefore abbandon th 15 inch gun, after the Bayern Class would eventually disappear and only use the new 13.8 inch and 16.5 inch gun as main battleshipguns. (Shellweight: around 800 kg for 13.8 inch and around 1500 kg for 16.5 inch. Having an 15 inch gun with a simmilar shell of 800 kg is a waist of resources.)

[Eternity]

Notes on update:

• The Chinese Ning Hia Class Light Cruisers are basically the same as OTL, except they are more 'Soviet' in appearance, and use Soviet 5.1"/55 weapons, with the option of upgrading to the new models that are currently under development, when they enter service (Note: This will not occur IMTL).
• Argintina going to purchase 30x Clemson Class destroyers may seem excessive, but I need them to have a heap later in the TL. Besides, their navy is BB and CA heavy as it is.
• I don't know if Comrade Artuzov had any children - Or even married. He is real and in his OTL post BTW. I have his son promoted to Captain over the course of 17 years as the purges the Red Army suffered meant that those men loyal to the cause got promoted quickly (Even if they were incompatant). Not saying this man is that, but it is why he achieves that rank, despite his reasons for entering the army.

[Zmflavius]

Wow, that's quite amazing.

Out of curiosity, what happened to Artuzov OTL?

[ijnfleetadmiral]

I agree...now for the rest of 1932 and the first half of 1933! This timeline is addictive! Can't wait until war's a'brewin' again! So the Omahas are not going to be in the USN much longer, I'm guessing?

-Matt

[Eternity]

Hi Matt.

My current plans for the Omaha's are as OTL (Remain with the USN and serve until the mid 1940's), but that of course may change

Hi Zmflavius.

Well, according to Wiki he got the good old traditional Soviet way of being dealt with during the Great Purge of 1937.


I should also add that while reading up on how Stalin dealt with people who 'upset' him, I did come across several references saying that he would not necessarially take direct action against that person, but rather friends and family instead, as per what I did to Artuzov.

[HMS Warspite]

Hi there,

Some technical remarks on the refitted Mackensen class:
The picture itself is showing as bit top heavt, as the eight added twin AA mountings add topweight seriously, as does the towerbridge, while retainign a twin funneled layout.

Suggestion: fuse the two funnels into one and reduce the tower to a polemaststructure, as in the OTL Deutschland class cruiser. Also recommended is to reduce the AA outfit to only four twin 105mm guns, as the number of eight seems a bit hight in the early 30's. Most BB's still had at best eight heavy AA guns at the time, so no serious consequenses here. Possibly remodel the turrets as in the original ship to their shape, but fitting it with the new 13.8 inch (35cm/57 SKC-36), with its more capable shell. 15 inch cannot fit in the tight original barbettes, as mentioned before, as the 38cm/52 SK C-34 is a big and heavy gun, requireing a larger turret and barbette, needing lots of rebuilding of the whole hull. A newly build ship in such a case is more economical.

Remarks on IINS Tiger:
The ship looks ugly, (the original was a very handsome looking vessel indeed) with two mast in front of the single big funnel. Perhaps moving the stack between the masts is more logical.