Dornier 19 instead of FW 200

[cortz#9]

Greetings Wiking have been following this thread as well as other Luftwaffe related threads of yours with much interest.

You seem to be building up to a TL with an altogether different Luftwaffe, different high command different aircraft and different tactics. I approve!

I like your idea for a dedicated maritime version of the Do19 if the Luftwaffe uses this wpn. With more aggressive tactics against shipping while the heavy bomber version does same against British ports & docks the results from this strategy could be quite impressive.

If the Italians could send some squadrons of S.M.79s to France instead of the ineffectual squadrons they sent to Belgium then the damage could be doubled. However the Germans will have to supply the torpedoes since Italy sold all of theirs to the Germans earlier.

I also think you're idea of launching heavy night bombing raids in July could be a better tactic than those used in the BOB in OTL. Have the Do19s drop blockbusters followed by He111s dropping incendiaries.

Follow this up with Ju88s & Me110 Jabos doing hit and run strikes by day with heavy fighter cover.

I don’t believe these tactics will automatically result in victory but they’re dam sure better than what was used in OTL.

I hope all your work here is leading to a TL I for one would love to read it.

[wiking]

Originally Posted by cortz#9

Greetings Wiking have been following this thread as well as other Luftwaffe related threads of yours with much interest.

You seem to be building up to a TL with an altogether different Luftwaffe, different high command different aircraft and different tactics. I approve!

I like your idea for a dedicated maritime version of the Do19 if the Luftwaffe uses this wpn. With more aggressive tactics against shipping while the heavy bomber version does same against British ports & docks the results from this strategy could be quite impressive.

If the Italians could send some squadrons of S.M.79s to France instead of the ineffectual squadrons they sent to Belgium then the damage could be doubled. However the Germans will have to supply the torpedoes since Italy sold all of theirs to the Germans earlier.

I also think you're idea of launching heavy night bombing raids in July could be a better tactic than those used in the BOB in OTL. Have the Do19s drop blockbusters followed by He111s dropping incendiaries.

Follow this up with Ju88s & Me110 Jabos doing hit and run strikes by day with heavy fighter cover.

I don’t believe these tactics will automatically result in victory but they’re dam sure better than what was used in OTL.

I hope all your work here is leading to a TL I for one would love to read it.

Thanks! I probably won't be writing it anytime soon, as I still need to do a lot of reading about the politics of the time. I'm afraid of making it too wanky for the Luftwaffe to tell the story I want...but its probably going to happen anyway, especially as a number of posters here will criticize it for being too optimistic to the Luftwaffe.

Yes, the changes I am planning would make the Luftwaffe and German economy very different than OTL, as would the power structure.
The Ju88 has excellent night potential too, as it, without the dive bombing requirement, would be the Luftwaffe's Mosquito. The Bf110 I fear is not going to make it in my TL. Its roles would be taken on by the Fw187 and Ju88C, both of which are better suited than the Bf110 for the intended roles.

Yeah, I figure the Italians will be more properly used ITTL than IOTL, but won't be a big factor for the most part. Still with the damage inflicted by the Germans on the British ports, they will have a very hard time exporting to North Africa and sustaining an offensive there, which gives the Italians more flexibility of action as the war goes on.

Ju88s for the daylight bombing of Britain, though not deeply, will still be a factor, as will the Fw187 with its long range acting in the role of the P51 IOTL, though there won't be as many of them as the P51. The Luftwaffe was so badly led and disorganized at all levels, even production, that they missed a golden opportunity to cripple Britain in 1940-1 IOTL, but will be much better prepared ITTL. Nevertheless butterflies will not necessarily be kind to Germany as a result, especially on the Eastern Front.

Edit:
The whole quote from Arthur Harris:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebombing#Tactics

"In the early days of bombing our notion, like that of the Germans, was to spread an attack out over the whole night, thereby wearing down the morale of the civilian population. The result was, of course, that an efficient fire brigade could tackle a single load of incendiaries, put them out, and wait in comfort for the next to come along; they might also be able to take shelter when a few high explosives bombs were dropping. ... But it was observed that when the Germans did get an effective concentration, ... then our fire brigades had a hard time; if a rain of incendiaries is mixed with high explosives bombs there is a temptation for the fireman to keep his head down. The Germans again and again missed their chance, as they did during the London blitz that I watched from the roof of the Air Ministry, of setting our cities ablaze by a concentrated attack. Coventry was adequately concentrated in point of space, but all the same there was little concentration in point of time, and nothing like the fire tornadoes of Hamburg or Dresden ever occurred in this country. But they did do us enough damage to teach us the principle of concentration, the principle of starting so many fires at the same time that no fire fighting services, however efficiently and quickly they were reinforced by the fire brigades of other towns could get them under control."
—Arthur Harris, [3]

[cortz#9]

Very interesting is the Ju87 still going to be built or will it along with Udet be butterflied away? If so how about giving the Hs129 more powerful engines earlier perhaps a Japanese radial design? Or just the Junkers engine that would have gone to the stuka it would be more useful than the Me110 on the eastern front in my opinion.
I’m also wondering if no HG will Miltch choose the He112 over the Me109? Will Messerschmitt focus on bombers? Maybe the Me264 sees action in this TL?

[wiking]

Originally Posted by cortz#9

Very interesting is the Ju87 still going to be built or will it along with Udet be butterflied away? If so how about giving the Hs129 more powerful engines earlier perhaps a Japanese radial design? Or just the Junkers engine that would have gone to the stuka it would be more useful than the Me110 on the eastern front in my opinion.
I’m also wondering if no HG will Miltch choose the He112 over the Me109? Will Messerschmitt focus on bombers? Maybe the Me264 sees action in this TL?

The Ju87 predated Udet's tenure in the technical department. The Japanese radials would be a very good choice, the question is whether the Germans would even be interested in "inferior races'" technology. OTL they weren't...but then the advances of the Japanese over German radials happened after Wever's death, so perhaps with Wimmer surviving longer in the technical branch there may be some exchange???

Milch wasn't really the selector prior to 1936. He also doesn't have a choice as the He112 came much later and was less upgradable than the Me109...so the Me109 wins because the Germans need a fighter before the war starts and the Me109 was able to be developed sooner than the ever-delayed He100/112.

I think the He277 would end up likely being the successor to the He177B.

[Catspoke]

Completely loaded up on fuel and no bombs (a transfer mission) how far could a DO 19 go?

Could you:

a) Fly 100 of them from the Caucasus to Burma in September 1942 and create an anti-shipping squadron in the Bay of Bengal?

b) Fly 10 or 20 to Italian East Africa to setup a base to raid the Indian Ocean in August 1940 or to raid the British refineries in the Persian gulf.

Or loaded with bombs (regular mission):

c) From an airbase in southern Libya, raid the ocean off Nigeria?
d) From August to January 1943 raid shipping in the Caspian? (seems doable, unescorted tankers easy targets)

[wiking]

Originally Posted by Catspoke

Completely loaded up on fuel and no bombs (a transfer mission) how far could a DO 19 go?

Could you:

a) Fly 100 of them from the Caucasus to Burma in September 1942 and create an anti-shipping squadron in the Bay of Bengal?

b) Fly 10 or 20 to Italian East Africa to setup a base to raid the Indian Ocean in August 1940 or to raid the British refineries in the Persian gulf.

Or loaded with bombs (regular mission):

c) From an airbase in southern Libya, raid the ocean off Nigeria?
d) From August to January 1943 raid shipping in the Caspian? (seems doable, unescorted tankers easy targets)

Well the Do119, the developed navalized Do19, in my mind could travel probably between 2,000-2,500 miles with 2,000kg of bombs and fuel in the other part of the bomb bay that could hold 2,000kg more of stores.
Ferry range would be around 3,500-4,000 miles or so.
A) probably not and why?
B) why when its more important to use limited resources against the British Home Isles? Which is a richer hunting ground anyway.
C) probably not and again they are more useful in Europe.
D) probably would need a He177 to do so.

[CalBear]

Range was about 1,000 miles (a bit less, but close enough) you might be able to get another couple hours in the air with bombbay tanks. Call it 1,400 miles.

Originally Posted by Catspoke

Completely loaded up on fuel and no bombs (a transfer mission) how far could a DO 19 go?

Could you:

a) Fly 100 of them from the Caucasus to Burma in September 1942 and create an anti-shipping squadron in the Bay of Bengal?

b) Fly 10 or 20 to Italian East Africa to setup a base to raid the Indian Ocean in August 1940 or to raid the British refineries in the Persian gulf.

Or loaded with bombs (regular mission):

c) From an airbase in southern Libya, raid the ocean off Nigeria?
d) From August to January 1943 raid shipping in the Caspian? (seems doable, unescorted tankers easy targets)

[wiking]

Originally Posted by CalBear

Range was about 1,000 miles (a bit less, but close enough) you might be able to get another couple hours in the air with bombbay tanks. Call it 1,400 miles.

As we noted earlier that's the performance of the first prototype flown in 1936, not the developed production model or even the further developed marks of the production model by 1940-1. So I don't think you should cite that as the definitive performance of the Do19, when even adding the Jumo 211B with 1,200 hp is a vast improvement of the 600hp at altitude Bramo 322. Even with greater fuel consumption of the higher HP engines, it would move fast at economical cruise speed than with the Bramos, getting greater range for its time in the air. Also Bramos got worse specific fuel consumption than the Jumo's so its more efficient at fuel usage. And if we add the DB601N the specific fuel consumption is actually significantly more efficient than either the Bramo or Jumo, so it would generation power at much greater efficiency and translate into better range per gallon of fuel. Plus if its developed to hold more fuel than that would increase even more.

[cortz#9]

Went back and reread this thread from the beginning and I see the POD is Wever living. I thought you were bumping off Goering in WWI or the 1920s for some reason.

I must have confused it with another thread. Are you planning on removing HG in your TL?

[wiking]

Originally Posted by cortz#9

Went back and reread this thread from the beginning and I see the POD is Wever living. I thought you were bumping off Goering in WWI or the 1920s for some reason.

I must have confused it with another thread. Are you planning on removing HG in your TL?

I have two TLs running in my head, one where he dies and butterflies Wever's death and one where he continues on, but Wever doesn't die.
The Luftwaffe and Germany as a whole does much better with Goering dead, but it adds complications in German politics and may butterfly away WW2...so I need to do some improbable developments to start WW2 as we know it and go from there.

[cortz#9]

I see as big a fuck up as he was without him in the early days the Luftwaffe might be worse off.

[wiking]

Originally Posted by cortz#9

I see as big a fuck up as he was without him in the early days the Luftwaffe might be worse off.

Given how badly he mismanage the German economy from 1936-1942, its a net boon and the Luftwaffe might end up with more resources and being more efficient as a result of having more competent managers and perhaps some resource belt-tightening. The glut of resources under Goering until the resources crisis made guys like Udet inefficient in resource management, such as allocating 6 tons of aluminium per aircraft regardless of actual needs, causing an aluminum shortage from 1939-1941. When Milch took production over again in 1942, he found that over 1 ton of aluminum was being wasted per BMW 801 engine.

[cortz#9]

All good points but if you remove him too soon there might be too many butterflies to count.

[wiking]

Originally Posted by cortz#9

All good points but if you remove him too soon there might be too many butterflies to count.

1936 instead of Wever. That gives things enough time to shake out, but butterflies are pretty severe at this point and may prevent WW2 in 1939...but its hard to say and give the storyteller a bit of wiggle room.

[cortz#9]

Sounds good not too soon not late. Should make for a very interesting TL. Good luck with this.

[wiking]

Originally Posted by cortz#9

Sounds good not too soon not late. Should make for a very interesting TL. Good luck with this.

Thanks, its going to a large undertaking, I've already read well over 100 books and articles about every military and economic aspect of the German war effort. I wish my German were better, then I could read the REALLY valuable books and give me a better understanding of some military issues...

[cortz#9]

Originally Posted by wiking

Thanks, its going to a large undertaking, I've already read well over 100 books and articles about every military and economic aspect of the German war effort. I wish my German were better, then I could read the REALLY valuable books and give me a better understanding of some military issues...

Perhaps you should reach out to some of our German members I know There's more than a few here.

[wiking]

Originally Posted by cortz#9

Perhaps you should reach out to some of our German members I know There's more than a few here.

I appreciate the advice, but I doubt they'd be willing to translate 700+ page books.

[cortz#9]

Originally Posted by wiking

I appreciate the advice, but I doubt they'd be willing to translate 700+ page books.

But..but how can they refuse you? It's for a TL DAMMIT ! But back on topic when you do get around to writing your TL could you butterfly away the bombing of a certain glue factory I would love to see the Fw. Ta154 go into production it was such a cool looking plane.

[wiking]

Originally Posted by cortz#9

But..but how can they refuse you? It's for a TL DAMMIT ! But back on topic when you do get around to writing your TL could you butterfly away the bombing of a certain glue factory I would love to see the Fw. Ta154 go into production it was such a cool looking plane.

I'm certainly going to keep that in mind.