The Whale has Wings

[Gannt the chartist]

You think the suggestions that 'accidents' can happen to Astro if anything happens to E (or Warspite) may have something to do with the teasing.

Have the French been refitted as regards AA/radar?

[MattII]

Originally Posted by Paulo the Limey

If you do have the Enterprise sunk, you better come up with a watertight case for doing so (bad pun intended).

Well Yorktown was OTL on the road to being salvaged when she was hit by the torpedoes on June 5th, and was still afloat more than a day later, so it's quite possible that a strike on the Enterprise could wreck her without actually sinking her.

[The Oncoming Storm]

I do hope the Enterprise survives for no other reason than "These are the voyages of the Starship Yorktown..." doesn't roll off the tongue as well.

[Derek Pullem]

Let's face it - with the concentration of force that exists in the IJN carrier force whichever element of the Allied fleets is detected first is going to suffer a pretty severe beating. Whilst the other one will essentially get off comparitively lightly as it follows the attack back.

It's likely (but not certain) that the IJN will find the USN first. After all it is what they are looking for. Perhaps the more interesting story would be if the Japanese find Force Z first and correctly identify it. That would certainly change the Japanese perspective of the battle to come and make it much more of a slugfest.

Of course the Japanese would still have to believe the original report. Given their intelligence I'm not sure I'd believe a report indicating more RN carriers than they believe to be in SE Asia appearing the the middle of the Pacific!

[Captain Jack]

no it doesn't but i think that "Starship Audacious" sounds just fine

[trekchu]

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

I do hope the Enterprise survives for no other reason than "These are the voyages of the Starship Yorktown..." doesn't roll off the tongue as well.

Indeed. Sinking the Enterprise is the most henious of crimes. Right up there with the Star Wars prequels.

[usertron2020]

Let's face it - with the concentration of force that exists in the IJN carrier force whichever element of the Allied fleets is detected first is going to suffer a pretty severe beating. Whilst the other one will essentially get off comparitively lightly as it follows the attack back.

It's likely (but not certain) that the IJN will find the USN first. After all it is what they are looking for. Perhaps the more interesting story would be if the Japanese find Force Z first and correctly identify it. That would certainly change the Japanese perspective of the battle to come and make it much more of a slugfest.

Of course the Japanese would still have to believe the original report. Given their intelligence I'm not sure I'd believe a report indicating more RN carriers than they believe to be in SE Asia appearing the the middle of the Pacific!

Given their sub screen being out of place while the American's is not, and the USN having its own scouting plus Midway's plus the RN's, while Nagumo is using only a single-phased search pattern using mostly severely outmoded slow flying cruiser and battleship search planes with poor pilots (at least three pilots got lost OR even overflew the Yorktown without seeing anything), PLUS Nagumo not expecting anyone to be there while his opponents KNEW he was coming...

I have to admit that I find your confidence in Nagumo finding his opponents FIRST to be "likely" to be puzzling.

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by Captain Jack

no it doesn't but i think that "Starship Audacious" sounds just fine

Try selling that to NBC executives in 1965.

[Derek Pullem]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

Given their sub screen being out of place while the American's is not, and the USN having its own scouting plus Midway's plus the RN's, while Nagumo is using only a single-phased search pattern using mostly severely outmoded slow flying cruiser and battleship search planes with poor pilots (at least three pilots got lost OR even overflew the Yorktown without seeing anything), PLUS Nagumo not expecting anyone to be there while his opponents KNEW he was coming...

I have to admit that I find your confidence in Nagumo finding his opponents FIRST to be "likely" to be puzzling.

I would include in Nagumo finding the USN first the circumstance when a fully loaded USN Alpha stike appears over the horizon. As opposed to when an RN Alpha strike appears

Of course if both appear at the same time this is a moot point but I would be very suprised if that level of co-operation was achieved between the two allied forces.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

Also, were not the Vindicators on Midway being employed in the battle as torpedo bombers?

Astrodragon, your OOB list missed one = the JFU

I'm not kidding

PM me if you wish

There are some deliberate differences on Midway caused by the Corsairs and the stronger allied fleet (not such desperate need to throw evey obsolete plane at the Japanese, for example)

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Gannt the chartist

You think the suggestions that 'accidents' can happen to Astro if anything happens to E (or Warspite) may have something to do with the teasing.

Have the French been refitted as regards AA/radar?

The French have been operating with the RN for years now. Light AA is common with the RN, as is radar. As are things like communications and operating doctrine.The big guns aren't, but then ammo for them is a small enough issue that it can be supplied separately.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

Given their sub screen being out of place while the American's is not, and the USN having its own scouting plus Midway's plus the RN's, while Nagumo is using only a single-phased search pattern using mostly severely outmoded slow flying cruiser and battleship search planes with poor pilots (at least three pilots got lost OR even overflew the Yorktown without seeing anything), PLUS Nagumo not expecting anyone to be there while his opponents KNEW he was coming...

I have to admit that I find your confidence in Nagumo finding his opponents FIRST to be "likely" to be puzzling.

However the actual US strikes seemed to have certain difficulties fiinding anything....
Both the USN and the IJN had problems with their search doctrine and training, which I always found odd as in daylight carrier warfare its VITAL. I surmise it wasn't seen as cool as sinking things.
The early RN search techniques were even worse. However 3 years of war (and having to deal with the often appalling weather in the North Sea) have forced them to improve dramatically, hence the ASV.
While the sea conditions were good, the weather wasn't that optimal for finding ships visually, something thats going to affect everyone except the Spearfish. And even then ASV radar suffered failures, it wasn't the radar we are used to nowadays.
Which is why someone (or quite possibly a number of someones) will get a shock, there are a lot of big hammers out there looking for eggshells...

[Astrodragon]

While I'm not saying yet who will survive, I would expect that US carriers sunk will result in the renaming of some of the Essex class. So whatever happens, you will have an Enterprise with a busy war record. Just maybe not on one ship...

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by trekchu

Indeed. Sinking the Enterprise is the most henious of crimes. Right up there with the Star Wars prequels.

Pah!!!

Dragons know no fear!!

We are WAY too hyped up on caffein...

[trekchu]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Pah!!!

Dragons know no fear!!

We are WAY too hyped up on caffein...

It's just that Star Trek once quite literally pulled me out of a dangerously deep emotional hole...

[wietze]

well i think the fish have the right too to enjoy the sight of the enterprise
after all something will sink, and such a big name is good for dramatic purposes

hmm the starship Intrepid has a good ring to it
"to intrepidly go where no one has gone before"

[GarethC]

Originally Posted by usertron2020

Also, were not the Vindicators on Midway being employed in the battle as torpedo bombers?

They went as dive bombers, reaching the Japanese carrier force after Henderson's SBDs had been driven off. They approached from the far side of the Japanese formation, and were so slow that the section CO decided to try for the closer Haruna instead of flying to the further carriers, managing one near miss.

[Astrodragon]

Battle of Midway

The Allied disposition of forces was aided immensely by the breaking of the Japanese codes. As a result of this Admiral Nimitz was able to plan to set a trap for the IJN, rather than just having to react to the attack (which would have caused immense difficulties due to the heavy Japanese forces employed). It also gave him time to request, first informally them formally, help from Admiral Somerville at Singapore. While it was hoped that a Royal Navy task force would be able to arrive to help in the battle, even if this proved impossible it would be an invaluable 'back-stop' in case the USN lost the battle, both to help protect Hawaii and the New Guinea/DEI/Solomons.

Nimitz therefore made his preparations on the assumption that the RN force would not arrive in time to help with the battle. The US forces were centred around two carrier task forces, each with two fleet carriers. These were supported by cruisers and escorts (the old, slow US battleships could not keep up). He also had a cruiser force available; this had originally been held back to cover the possibility of an attack on the Aleutian islands, but as more information was obtained on the Japanese intentions this seemed very unlikely. He therefore decided to keep the surface force back out of range of the Japanese aircraft, but close enough to come to the aid of the carrier task forces if necessary. He was concerned about the vulnerability of the US Task Forces to a Japanese surface attack. While they had been ordered to keep their distance, if carriers had been damaged they would need additional protection. he was less concerned with the RN force as that had three modern battleships attached.

The two USN carrier Task Forces were to operate together, but separated. At this point in the war the USN was not practiced at operating more than two carriers together, so this would hopefully allow them to hit the same targets while not complicating their strike arrangements. It was hoped to use Midway as another carrier, but this was complicated by the mix of aircraft on the island, none of whom were practised at anti-ship actions.

The most controversial aspect of Nimitz's planning (although it was not revealed until after the war) was that he considered Midway island itself expendable. His priority was the survival of his carriers. His argument was that an intact carrier force allowed a captured Midway to be retaken, while without the carriers the IJN could invade Midway at its leisure. The carrier task forces had been told that 1:1 losses were acceptable (the allies had more fleet carriers than Japan, with many more building), but if the odds worsened they were to regroup and pull back. In particular they were to keep out of range of the Japanese surface force, even if this meant reducing their attack efficiency.

The orders for Force Z were rather different, as it was unclear exactly when they would be available. If the Japanese attack had still not taken place, he intended to move the force up closer to the US carriers to form three task forces, both to aid the chance of detection and to allow much heavier strikes to destroy the Japanese carriers as soon as possible. If time did not allow this, it might still be possible to move them into an attack position (although this would need the Japanese force to have been detected). Failing either of these, Force Z would be held further south where it was likely it could strike either or both of the invasion fleet or its covering force. For political reasons Force Z was given more freedom to decide its positioning than the US forces.

1st June

A Catalina flying out of Midway had spotted the Japanese Invasion force late on the previous afternoon. While the location of this was obviously important to the island's defenders, Nimitz was far more interested in where the enemy carrier force was. The spotting of the invasion transports meant there had to be a covering force close by, and from his intelligence assessments a carrier force as well. Accordingly he ordered Midway to keep an eye on the invasion force (which was still well clear of the island), and use all its resources to fix the carriers. Nimitz is pleased by the accuracy of the decoding effort - they have only missed the exact arrival of the Japanese force by one day.

While the US Carrier force is in position, it is now clear that it will not be possible for Force Z to join up with them in time. Nimitz signals Lyster to proceed to one of the assigned alternative positions. This will hopefully put him in position to attack the Japanese from the Southeast. Nimitz is aware that for political reasons it is important for the USN to be in most risk of attack, however he hopes that the RN carriers will be able to help destroy the Japanese force before it does too much damage to his own carriers.

2nd June

A force of three B-17's flying from Midway find the Transport group, dropping their bombs on it. Although they claim hits, so significant damage was done. However a Catalina flying boat makes a successful torpedo attack on one of the accompanying tankers.

Search planes flying from Midway have still not located the Japanese carrier force or the main body. While the main body is expected to be in the rear, it is disturbing that the carriers have not yet been spotted. Fletcher and Spruance are instructed that, if the land-based planes have not made contact by the evening, to carry out their own searches. It had been hoped that the location of the US force could have been kept secret, but the Japanese carriers need to be located. Force Z will not send out a full search until nightfall - the presence of the RN carriers is a major card for Nimitz to play, and he would prefer them kept secret as long as possible.
Nagumo's carrier force hasn't been too worried about finding its initial target - the island of Midway isn't moving very fast. However he is aware that US fleet carriers are expected in the vicinity - intelligence has informed him that two carriers are defiantly at sea, and possibly a third. With this in mind his first strike will only consist of half his planes, the rest will be held ready for an attack on US ships.

At 04:30, Nagumo launched his initial attack on Midway itself, consisting of 48 Aichi D3A dive bombers and 48 Nakajima B5N torpedo bombers, escorted by 40 Mitsubishi A6M Zero fighters. At the same time, he launched his combat air patrol, as well as his eight search aircraft from the accompanying cruisers.

[MattII]

So both sides are fighting a bit blind? Plenty of room for muck-ups.

[Paulo the Limey]

The plot thickens. Much now rests on whether the USN can fix the IJN carriers first, and whether or not they have sufficiently improved their ability to get strikes on the way. IIRC in earlier battles even if they found the enemy first, their strikes went in second.

Astrodragon- how far apart are the two USN task forces operating? If it is enough that a scout spotting one could easily miss the other, then this is bad news for the IJN- reinforcing the idea that the enemy will do exactly as they expect.