An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion

[Tongera]

At this point in time, can the HRE unify into a centralised state?

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Tongera

At this point in time, can the HRE unify into a centralised state?

If Frederick's heirs have the strength, it might be possible.

I presume the HRE position is still elective, but one family having a lot of the elector seats wouldn't be impossible.

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

If Frederick's heirs have the strength, it might be possible.

If his heirs have the strength and England-France/Rhomanian dont get involved, a big problem OTL was that France and Poland would run interference to damage the empires unity.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

If his heirs have the strength and England-France/Rhomanian dont get involved, a big problem OTL was that France and Poland would run interference to damage the empires unity.

Well, I'm assuming "having the strength" includes being able to cope with any attempts by England-France.

Rhomania has relatively little interest one way or another in the unification of the HRE, even in this timeline (where it has southern Italy).

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Well, I'm assuming "having the strength" includes being able to cope with any attempts by England-France.

Rhomania has relatively little interest one way or another in the unification of the HRE, even in this timeline (where it has southern Italy).

It is a massive threat to Roman Italy, so they want North Italy atleast to divided or outside of their sphere.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

It is a massive threat to Roman Italy, so they want North Italy atleast to divided or outside of their sphere.

It is a power primarily in western-central Europe, not Italy, so considering it a massive threat is only going to come up if the Germans look southward.

I'm not saying there's no interest whatsoever in keeping it from being a problem, but on the list of things that the Romans have a reason to want checked, its not one of the higher priorities.

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

It is a power primarily in western-central Europe, not Italy, so considering it a massive threat is only going to come up if the Germans look southward.

I'm not saying there's no interest whatsoever in keeping it from being a problem, but on the list of things that the Romans have a reason to want checked, its not one of the higher priorities.

Eh, in any centralisation campaign it will come eventually. Its valuable territory and its pointless not to eventually given how they are de-jure part of the empire. Its not gonna be a problem for now but it may blow up in a century or two.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

Eh, in any centralisation campaign it will come eventually. Its valuable territory and its pointless not to eventually given how they are de-jure part of the empire. Its not gonna be a problem for now but it may blow up in a century or two.

Northern Italy is, central Italy is disputable, southern Italy isn't (for the HRE).

And in a century or two Rhomania can worry about it, as opposed to spending valuable resources on something that isn't an issue.

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Northern Italy is, central Italy is disputable, southern Italy isn't (for the HRE).

And in a century or two Rhomania can worry about it, as opposed to spending valuable resources on something that isn't an issue.

They still have some claim on central italy given how they will then always have the excuse of restoring the Papacy to its rightful place (and much more subordinate to the emperor than before) thats a possible bone of contention, let alone other wars to restore the south Italian Catholic kingdoms as vasals. There is a lot of room for conflict in Italys future given its value strategically and economically.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

They still have some claim on central italy given how they will then always have the excuse of restoring the Papacy to its rightful place (and much more subordinate to the emperor than before) thats a possible bone of contention, let alone other wars to restore the south Italian Catholic kingdoms as vasals. There is a lot of room for conflict in Italys future given its value strategically and economically.

There's always room for conflict anywhere in Europe. Doesn't mean Rhomania should spent money and trouble on the HRE more than Hungary, which is on important borders.

And the southern Italian kingdoms were never rightfully vassals of the HRE, at least not OTL.

[Basileus444]

Part 8, The Boy Emperor, 1458-1469, covering the period from the death of Theodoros IV to the beginning of the Venetian campaign, has been posted in the Finished TL section.

Alfredo died of natural causes; he was 64 (born in 1436, so twenty four when he and Andreas met at Bari in 1460 when Andreas was fifteen).

Regarding lenses, I'll have to look into that. I know telescopes didn't pop up until the 1600s.

As for major powers, I won't devote a special update to them, since their responses flow naturally into the regular TL, and will be pretty obvious.

I think it's possible for the HRE to centralize, but it will be a long and difficult road, but I do have ideas stirring. Italy would be the main bone of contention between the HRE and RRE (Real Roman Empire ). But as of now, if watching Hungary has a priority level 10 in Constantinople's eye, watching the HRE is a 4.

This update's shorter than I intended, but OTL interfered with my writing time. Hope you enjoy anyway.

"The reason is theological. The Muslims believe that if they die on jihad, they get 72 virgins in heaven. However closer study has revealed that that is not true. What they are promised is one 72-year-old virgin. Naturally this has dampened enthusiasm."-Andreas Angelos, explaining the House of Islam's response to the jihad

1500 continued:
Alfredo is succeeded in his capacity as strategos by Tancredi di Sava, who is young enough to have only the most fleeting memories of the Apulian revolt against Roman revolt. Although Apulian is his first language, his Greek is almost accent-free, he follows the Orthodox rite and has studied and graduated from the School of War. He is one of an increasing number of Apulians who are steadily being Hellenized, due to the presence of Bari with its university, and the Apulian tagma. In Sicily too, the tagma is having a great effect on Hellenizing the population, particularly the cities of Syracuse and Messina. Already there is talk of establishing an university in Syracuse.

The new Dux of Abruzzi is Alfredo’s oldest son Manuel, who is twenty six years old. Married to the daughter of a wealthy silk merchant from Palermo, he used her dowry to establish several vineyards that produce fine wine, considered some of the best in southern Italy. Inheriting his father’s look, he also spends much time training his retainers. Abruzzi maintains two thousand men, four hundred of them cavalry, which Alfredo had organized similarly to a theme, a model imitated by all of the Italian vassals. Together they maintain an army of eleven thousand men of good quality, although not the equal of the tagmata due to no schools of war or warehouse systems.

Although Alfredo’s death of natural causes is a sizeable blow to morale, Roman progress in Egypt remains unimpaired, although still slow due to the numerous earthen forts. Brihan’s march up the Nile is similarly painstaking, not because of Mameluke resistance which is limited at best, but because of exceedingly difficult terrain and laborious supply lines.

It is the Holy Land where operations move fast. Andreas leaves most of his infantry besieging Acre and Haifa, setting out with the bulk of his cavalry supported by some infantry, primarily akrites and toxotai, riding on spare horses but dismounting for battle. His goal is the destruction of the Sultan’s army. Dividing his forces presents the possibility of Ismail destroying his forces piecemeal, but Andreas is moving too fast to be pinned down, while the besiegers are well entrenched. Attacking them presents the risk of being trapped between the anvil of the Roman infantry and the hammer of the Roman cavalry.

For three months Andreas harries Ismail incessantly as one by one the Roman infantry and artillery takes city after city. Andronikos Angelos personally commands the capture of Acre and Jaffa, while other forces capture the interior as far south as the Horns of Hattin, where Miguel de Talavera prominently plants eighteen pikes adorned with the rotting heads of captured Mameluke commanders.

Meanwhile Ismail is bleeding. Andreas and his army are both suffering from the hot climate, the forced and frequent marches, and the supply difficulties, but both are holding up. Physically Ismail is doing better than Andreas, but his army is disintegrating as starvation, disease, and desertion add their blows to those of Rhomania. Realizing that his once great host could not win another Mt. Tabor type engagement even if he could force one, Ismail decides on an extreme action.

Palestine is abandoned. Sultan Ismail will make his final stand in the heartland of Mameluke power, Egypt. He returns to Africa with one third of the men he had when he departed. Once more the call for jihad goes out, but it is depressed and resigned. From the Marinid Sultanate, whose coffers grow fat from the slave trade going through Carthage and which is more concerned with Portuguese and Andalusi encroachment on the lands beyond the Sahara, there is silence.

There is plenty of noise coming from Mesopotamia and Persia, but none of it is helpful for Egypt. In what is becoming a tired routine, Sultan Suleiman has led the Turkish host east, but that is where the similarity ends. “I aim to build an empire,” Suleiman declares when Hormuz falls in September. Unlike his predecessors, who had merely invaded, trusting in steel to secure their realm, Suleiman has established multiple contacts with minor Persian nobility, men who have power and influence, but not so much as to desire the status quo. With their support, his advance is vastly more rapid. When the year ends, he has claimed Gilan, Mazandaran, and all of the Persian Gulf coast as far as Hormuz. It had taken Osman II a decade to take the same territory.

So again the House of Islam does not respond, even as the greatest blow falls. On December 24, the assault on Jerusalem begins, heralded by the roar of seventy guns. The first over the walls are the Hospitalers, their armor blazing in the sun. Unlike the first attack on Jerusalem in the 1450s, Miguel de Talavera is not the first. He is the fifth.

The garrison counterattacks fiercely at the first sign of breach, and then history begins to repeat itself. Like the first time, a Mameluke arrow hits Miguel in the eye, his one remaining eye. The utterly enraged Knights shred the defenders and turn with full fury upon the counter-attackers. Three hundred of them put two thousand Mamelukes to flight.

Miguel de Talavera lives for three hours, long enough to receive word that the city has fallen. The tetragram flies from the Dome of the Rock. “He kept his promise,” the Grandmaster says; they are his last words. He is buried next to the section of wall he had stormed both in 1455 and 1500, just inside the city. It is a simple tomb, with a Hospitaler cross serving as the only decoration. On it is writ, in Latin, Greek, and Arabic “A soldier of God, who gave his life that Jerusalem may once again be a Christian city.” The tomb is still there to this day.

At around the same time, Andreas receives the news as well. A priest responds that “God’s work has been done. His city is free.” Supposedly the Emperor snorted in response. “God had little to do with this. He gave the life of one man for this city. I have given thousands.” Eudoxia repeats the tale, adding the following. “And the blood of a woman. My mother. If this is God’s city, he did a lousy job of defending it.”

Eudoxia explains the addition as follows: For he cited Jerusalem as the reason for drawing the Emperor Theodoros IV so far south, bringing his army so far from the Imperial heartland. It had left Rhomania exposed, raised the spirits of the Latins, and dared them to strike. So came the Black Day.

The news of Andreas’ alleged response spreads rapidly. The soldiers do not care; they are the ones who have bled and died for the Holy City, and the Emperor has been with them all the way, sleeping on the hard ground beside them, eating the same rough fare as them, demanding no privilege beyond that granted to the lowest skutatos. And he has led them to victory after victory. Compared to that, nothing else matters.

The clergy think otherwise. In Constantinople, they cluck in disapproval. But they are the only ones. The populace are overjoyed at the news of Jerusalem’s fall, tales abounding that their Emperor (as they call Andreas) was the first over the wall. Some disagree, saying that he broke the wall with a thrust of his lance, or a blow of his great sword.

But the White Palace does deign to weigh in on the affair. When questioned by the bishop of Ohrid about his feelings on the matter, Prince Herakleios replies with two words, whose historical validity cannot be questioned. The two words are “I agree.”

[eliphas8]

Well the Mamelukes are screwed something fierce (I'm sometimes told I state the obvious). This was a good update, the quote at the begining is probably the best so far.

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

Well the Mamelukes are screwed something fierce (I'm sometimes told I state the obvious). This was a good update, the quote at the begining is probably the best so far.

Yeah, absolutely one of the most funny ones, the guy should be a comedian.

Called it about Miguel!

Ismail's choice is the only logical one, even if it doesn't really help him that much.

Heraklios is beefing up his base, huh? he would have said "I agree" even if the guy had said the clouds were white because they are made of marshmallows...

[Alexandria Eschate]

So, where do you intend for the Mamelukes to make their final stand? As for the HRE centralising, it depends whether the Wittelsbachs decide to focus on the German lands, or retain their Italian claims, though obviously very shaky. Either way, this could lead to the HRE becoming a proto-Germany or a Central European power, though if they have Italian ambitions, I think conflicts with Hungary will be inevitable,especially over Austria. Speaking of Hungary, what's Andrew up to?

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by Alexandria Eschate

So, where do you intend for the Mamelukes to make their final stand? As for the HRE centralising, it depends whether the Wittelsbachs decide to focus on the German lands, or retain their Italian claims, though obviously very shaky. Either way, this could lead to the HRE becoming a proto-Germany or a Central European power, though if they have Italian ambitions, I think conflicts with Hungary will be inevitable,especially over Austria. Speaking of Hungary, what's Andrew up to?

They can retain their italian claims, but here there's a united polity in Northern Italy, the "Duchy" of Milan is quite powerful, so good luck with that. Conflict in Hungary over Austria seems likely if only to kick the Hungarians a little further from Bavaria.

[Alexandria Eschate]

Well, Milan is strong, but I'm sure the Germans can handle them if their bent on re-establishing a foothold in Italy. And Austria is important not just as a buffer for Bavaria, but additional supply routes for supporting an Italian foothold.

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by Alexandria Eschate

Well, Milan is strong, but I'm sure the Germans can handle them if their bent on re-establishing a foothold in Italy.

One-on-One yes, but Milan can master help from at least the Hungarians and the Romans against the HRE (without considering the Swiss may be in backstabbing mood).

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Arrix85

One-on-One yes, but Milan can master help from at least the Hungarians and the Romans against the HRE (without considering the Swiss may be in backstabbing mood).

And we should remember just how well earlier emperors did in Italy.

On Miguel: To paraphrase Patton, I'm not sad that he's dead - I'm thankful that men like him ever were.

[cimon]

OK,a man died,full of days;who is now the new Grand Master? and what is his relation with the emperor? would it be possible to fill the ranks of the Order by Apulians?

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by cimon

OK,a man died,full of days;who is now the new Grand Master? and what is his relation with the emperor? would it be possible to fill the ranks of the Order by Apulians?

Why just Apulians? the status of the Hospitallers has been raised considerably with the reconquest of Jerusalem. The thing is if this increased fame is gonna extend beyond the gregorians in the Roman Empire and its vassals or if the "stain" of being so attached to the romans it's gonna burn them outside of roman Italy...

The order may see a massive cash flow coming its way from catholic pilgrimages to the holy city, the Romans may grant them an exclusive on them. So I think the new grandmaster is gonna be quite happy.


If I may ask: what happened to Lorenzo 'de Medici?