German nationalism-exclusions?

[Shtudmuffin]

When German nationalism surfaced in the 19th century, why is it that several Germanic peoples (EG the Dutch) were excluded? What might have changed German nationalism to include other Germanic peoples outside of the HRE?

[Elfwine]

Those people being Deutch?

"Germanic people" is as broad a term as "Romance languages".

[Iori]

As Elfwine mentioned, German and Germanic are'nt the same thing.

German Nationalism came into being with the intent of Uniting the German people, who were spread out between dozens of small states and half a dozen larger states.

Their's essentially no way that the German Nationalist movement could ever be changed to include the other Germanic peoples without changing history so much that it would'nt even be recognizably the same.

[Elfwine]

Yeah. Even just the Dutch being included would require some significant PODs.

I'm sure Faeelin will chime in about how there were people who did want to include all Germanic peoples (and if he wasn't banned, Eurofed would be even more eager) - but that wasn't the norm.

[Rich Rostrom]

Originally Posted by Shtudmuffin

When German nationalism surfaced in the 19th century, why is it that several Germanic peoples (EG the Dutch) were excluded? What might have changed German nationalism to include other Germanic peoples outside of the HRE?

There were some "Pan-Germanist" who made such suggestions, but none of these "outside peoples" were interested.

The Dutch established a distinct national identity in the 1600s, and of course a distinct national state.

The Scandinavian peoples were never considered "German". They too had their own national states.

That leaves the Germanophone Swiss and the Flemings.

The Swiss had (like the others above) a long-established national identity and state outside the HRE.

In/out of the HRE seems decisive. Those out of the HRE had their own sovereign nation-states, and no interest in joining a German nation-state. Those in the HRE had only not-quite-sovereign petty states, which made German nation state attractive.

The Flemings were in the HRE... but separated geographically and linguistically from "Germany" for many years. They weren't interested. They seem to have been more interested in internal autonomy; vide the 1789 Belgian Declaration of Independence.

[Monty Burns]

There are ways to include the Dutch post 1600s, methinks, but that requires some major changes. For once, the Netherlands must expand into Germany.

There once was a dialect continuum from Holland into Germany, with people that now are considered German speaking the same native dialect that people behind the borders in the Netherlands spole. But on the Dutch side standard Dutch emerged as a language based on the dialects of Holland, on the German side standard German emerged based on different sources far away as well. Larger Netherlands won't prevent such a development, but it means that in later years much larger parts of the Netherlands will speak a dialect closer to German and may also identify themselves as German and then take the western parts with them during some unification.

---

In any case, it's far more likely that German nationalists come up with a scheme to claim that Czechs and Slovenes are actually German than them including Dutch or Scandinavians.

[Iori]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

In any case, it's far more likely that German nationalists come up with a scheme to claim that Czechs and Slovenes are actually German than them including Dutch or Scandinavians.

Indeed, heck I'd say even the Slovenes more so, since they were viewed as Germanized Slavs and seen as more or less equal/same as other Germans by quite a few people.

[pa_dutch]

Originally Posted by Rich Rostrom

There were some "Pan-Germanist" who made such suggestions, but none of these "outside peoples" were interested.

The Dutch established a distinct national identity in the 1600s, and of course a distinct national state.

The Scandinavian peoples were never considered "German". They too had their own national states.

That leaves the Germanophone Swiss and the Flemings.

The Swiss had (like the others above) a long-established national identity and state outside the HRE.

In/out of the HRE seems decisive. Those out of the HRE had their own sovereign nation-states, and no interest in joining a German nation-state. Those in the HRE had only not-quite-sovereign petty states, which made German nation state attractive.

The Flemings were in the HRE... but separated geographically and linguistically from "Germany" for many years. They weren't interested. They seem to have been more interested in internal autonomy; vide the 1789 Belgian Declaration of Independence.

Aren't we forgetting the Austrians, the Luxembourgers, and the Liechtensteiners?

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by pa_dutch

Aren't we forgetting the Austrians, the Luxembourgers, and the Liechtensteiners?

I don't know what's up with Luxembourg and Liechtenstein, but Austria-Hungary stayed out by Hapsburg (Governmental) choice, I think.

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by pa_dutch

Aren't we forgetting the Austrians, the Luxembourgers, and the Liechtensteiners?

The Austrians were included, and Luxembourg, too, was something most German nationalists perceived as German. Liechtenstein was probably just too small to be on the radar for most.

[Shtudmuffin]

Ok, so if the Dutch considered themselves a seperate nationality from the Germans, then how would they react to German invasion, occupation, and annexation?

[Socrates]

Originally Posted by Shtudmuffin

Ok, so if the Dutch considered themselves a seperate nationality from the Germans, then how would they react to German invasion, occupation, and annexation?

Not well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...2%80%931945%29

[Iori]

Originally Posted by Shtudmuffin

Ok, so if the Dutch considered themselves a seperate nationality from the Germans, then how would they react to German invasion, occupation, and annexation?

It would'nt happen since Germany would suffer militarily at the time and the rest of Europe would oppose it and likely lead to an earlier WWI and most likely a even harsher peace treaty dismantling Germany and foerbidding it to ever unify again.

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Shtudmuffin

Ok, so if the Dutch considered themselves a seperate nationality from the Germans, then how would they react to German invasion, occupation, and annexation?

We have hated the Germans for decades since the second world war. I think only in the 1990's we started to like them again. To be fair, losing the worldcup final in 1974 didn't help either. Currently the Germans are the people we pretend to hate, even though we actually like them.

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

There are ways to include the Dutch post 1600s, methinks, but that requires some major changes. For once, the Netherlands must expand into Germany.

There once was a dialect continuum from Holland into Germany, with people that now are considered German speaking the same native dialect that people behind the borders in the Netherlands spole. But on the Dutch side standard Dutch emerged as a language based on the dialects of Holland, on the German side standard German emerged based on different sources far away as well. Larger Netherlands won't prevent such a development, but it means that in later years much larger parts of the Netherlands will speak a dialect closer to German and may also identify themselves as German and then take the western parts with them during some unification.

Actually I think the Netherlands can double in size before they become more "German". You have to remember that the local population of northern Germany spoke a dialect only slightly related to German and not unlike the dialect spoken in the north east of the Netherlands (lowe Saxon) and some even spoke a Dutch dialect. Besides that you have to realise the influence of (the provence of) Holland. It was so dominant, not only in population, but in wealth and influence (both culturaly and politically), very few parts in north west Germany could counter it. The Netherlands can easily add East Frisia, Bentheim, Oldenburg, Munster, Lingen, Cleve, Julich, Mark and Berg without losing their Dutch identity. The only region in the neighbourhood that could rival the Netherlands would be Flanders/Brabant, which was closer to Dutch than German.

In my opinion the only way to add the Netherlands (willingly) to Germany would be a foreign (non-German) occupation. If in a Napoleonic victory the Netherlands remains occupied by France, I can see the Dutch growing closer to the Germans and German nationalism to counter the French occupation.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Mind you, dutch is far closer to the Platt they speak in Köln than either one is to Hoch. It would be pretty easy for otls dutch to be considered 'german' or for 'german' to be a language group with up to five or six languages. It would need a pod before, oh say, 1500.

[Imladrik]

When you see how the Alsatian were treated during the occupation by Germany, i'm not sure the German Nationalist would want more lands, except for the ressource and not the people on it.

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by Imladrik

When you see how the Alsatian were treated during the occupation by Germany, i'm not sure the German Nationalist would want more lands, except for the ressource and not the people on it.

That depends. The Alsatian problem was one of cognitive dissonance: the rulers of Germany could not understand how someone who spoke German could not want to be German. That, and Germany's neurotic obsession with loyalty.

Generally, the pan-German nationalist ideal was to include everyone who spoke German (and like all good ethnic nationalists, they considered mixed areas German with impurities). Since the development of languages was pretty much complete, incorporating the Netherlands or Flanders was not an issue. Austria, on the other hand, was sorely missed by many.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by pompejus

Actually I think the Netherlands can double in size before they become more "German". You have to remember that the local population of northern Germany spoke a dialect only slightly related to German and not unlike the dialect spoken in the north east of the Netherlands (lowe Saxon) and some even spoke a Dutch dialect. Besides that you have to realise the influence of (the provence of) Holland. It was so dominant, not only in population, but in wealth and influence (both culturaly and politically), very few parts in north west Germany could counter it. The Netherlands can easily add East Frisia, Bentheim, Oldenburg, Munster, Lingen, Cleve, Julich, Mark and Berg without losing their Dutch identity. The only region in the neighbourhood that could rival the Netherlands would be Flanders/Brabant, which was closer to Dutch than German.

It's a question of what weights heavier: the influence of Holland, which will indeed be felt deep into Germany, or the influence of nearby German centers. Someone from Oldenburg might go to Bremen for business and Gottingen for university, and that would bind these territories closer to Germany. Of course, all that also depends on policies enacted (particularly on language, but also considering autonomy in the provinces).

And it depends on the POD, as THorfinnsson says, you can butterfly away "Germans" as a nation starting in the middle ages.

[Daztur]

It'll take a POD pretty far back but if you can delay Dutch independence and keep Dutch from being a language of national government for as long as possible that'll help.

[Imladrik]

Originally Posted by carlton_bach

That depends. The Alsatian problem was one of cognitive dissonance: the rulers of Germany could not understand how someone who spoke German could not want to be German. That, and Germany's neurotic obsession with loyalty.

Generally, the pan-German nationalist ideal was to include everyone who spoke German (and like all good ethnic nationalists, they considered mixed areas German with impurities). Since the development of languages was pretty much complete, incorporating the Netherlands or Flanders was not an issue. Austria, on the other hand, was sorely missed by many.

Except Alsatian don't speak german. It was the biggest problem of the german nationalists, as more than half of Germany didn't spoke proper german or didn't spoke german at all. It was for example forbidden to speak French and Alsatian during WWII in Alsace. The best example i have for Alsatian not being German, is the name of the cities : Strasbourg is Straßburg in German and Strossburi in Alsatian. Mulhouse is Mülhausen in German and Melhüsa in Asatian. And the grammar is really different. So if Alsatian is German, dutch, english, norwegian, swedish and danish are german too.