A More Personal Union

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Thespitron 6000

A rough brown root crop, the potato has never been seen in China before, and Li and his people don’t know quite what to make of it. But the captain of the Portuguese ship sees an opportunity, and quickly informs the Chinese that potatoes can be grown in marginal lands as well as fields previously given over to rice. .

The Potato will be a stop gap replacement, but in another 10 years or so, Rice should be back in its preferred place in the Chinese Diet for a couple of reasons. First, Rice gives multiple crops a year under the best of conditions. The Potato is superior on the hillsides where terraced farming would be required, but down in the flatlands along the Yellow and the Yangtze, Rice is much better than Potatoes can be. The flip side of that is that in the fields where the least irrigation is done for Rice right along the river, the Potato can not survive easily. One of the few things that will stop potatoes from growing is ground that is too wet (the Potato rots in place). Also, the Potato actually benefits from a hard freeze.

Even under the most favorable historical conditions, the Potato will only remain as the dominant long term starch crop in Manchuria and in the mountains of the west like those in Sichuan. As far as I'm concerned it being the dominant starch long term in the lower Yangtze is ASB.... Unfortunately, the Potato may lead to the mountains of Sichuan being more useful for Farmers. TTL may have saved the Dodo, but at the cost of the Giant Panda.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Lavidor

I suppose the Portuguese are going to bring more missionaries now. Might their association with the Barbarian Root make them more successful? How about changing the name to Christfruit or something?

Unfortunately, the idea of a god that is cut into pieces fits better with the Myth of Osiris rather than Christ. (and the Nile is one of the few centers of civilization which is *worse* for long term use of the Potato than the Yangtse)

[Thespitron 6000]

Originally Posted by naraht

The Potato will be a stop gap replacement, but in another 10 years or so, Rice should be back in its preferred place in the Chinese Diet for a couple of reasons. First, Rice gives multiple crops a year under the best of conditions. The Potato is superior on the hillsides where terraced farming would be required, but down in the flatlands along the Yellow and the Yangtze, Rice is much better than Potatoes can be. The flip side of that is that in the fields where the least irrigation is done for Rice right along the river, the Potato can not survive easily. One of the few things that will stop potatoes from growing is ground that is too wet (the Potato rots in place). Also, the Potato actually benefits from a hard freeze.

Even under the most favorable historical conditions, the Potato will only remain as the dominant long term starch crop in Manchuria and in the mountains of the west like those in Sichuan. As far as I'm concerned it being the dominant starch long term in the lower Yangtze is ASB.... Unfortunately, the Potato may lead to the mountains of Sichuan being more useful for Farmers. TTL may have saved the Dodo, but at the cost of the Giant Panda.

Your analysis is essentially sound. Rice will return, after the stem rot burns itself out. One of the problems facing China right now is that it is so big, the stem rot is never fully eliminated. Regions thought to be clean simply end up with it being reintroduced from somewhere else. Japan managed to eliminate it by virtue of draconian measures, but those only worked because Japan is so much smaller than China.

OTL China is the top producer of potatoes in modern times, so I imagine it will gain a permanent place on the Chinese menu.

Also: fuck the panda.

[TaylorS]

Originally Posted by Thespitron 6000

Also: fuck the panda.

[Thespitron 6000]

Originally Posted by TaylorS

Look, those bastards so can't be bothered to keep themselves alive as a species that they've drafted another species to do it for them. They're parasites, nothing more.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Thespitron 6000

Your analysis is essentially sound. Rice will return, after the stem rot burns itself out. One of the problems facing China right now is that it is so big, the stem rot is never fully eliminated. Regions thought to be clean simply end up with it being reintroduced from somewhere else. Japan managed to eliminate it by virtue of draconian measures, but those only worked because Japan is so much smaller than China.

OTL China is the top producer of potatoes in modern times, so I imagine it will gain a permanent place on the Chinese menu.

Also: fuck the panda.

I would imagine the entire 17th century Rice-culture other than Japan is essentially connected, so even wiping it out in China could see reintroduction from Southeast Asia.

(Ooh, idea for a truly fun TL. The Japanese among other things imported Rice from China in the 1930s, what does a Japan with a Stem Rot in 1936-1938 look like. )

Yes, China is one of the top producers, but see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PotatoYield.png for the concentrations in the North and "West" (West to any Han Chinese prior to the 20th century).

While the Panda has traditionally not been a favorite among those with Zoophilia, given that TTL has seen the rise of Chinese Cannibalism, anything is possible.

[Tyg]

Originally Posted by Thespitron 6000

Also: fuck the panda.

Originally Posted by Thespitron 6000

Look, those bastards so can't be bothered to keep themselves alive as a species that they've drafted another species to do it for them. They're parasites, nothing more.

"Why do you hate me, Thespitron?"

[Positively Indecent]

This should get its own TV adaptation like the Borgias, the Tudors and Game of Thrones

[jkarr]

Originally Posted by Tyg

[I]"Why do you hate me, Thespitron?"

because pandas are obviously the bad guys...think about....nothing that cute could be that cute without a ulterior motive

[Thespitron 6000]

The Puritan Dilemma

England 1602: Since the advent of the Protestant Reformation, Europe has been divided into roughly three schools of religious thought regarding Christianity: Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Calvinism. Most of the religious reform movements in Britain and France have been strongly influenced by Calvinism, a doctrine developed by the Frenchman John Calvin. At the center of the debate between Catholicism and Reform is the role played by the hierarchy of the Church and the value of faith versus good works. Calvinism calls, in general, for a presbyterian model of the Church, with little hierarchy and almost all the power in the hands of pastoral preachers, and counsels the doctrine of predestination. Predestination, in summary, is the belief that God’s will and omniscience are absolute. At the beginning of the universe, God had already decided who would be saved. Human action has absolutely no impact on this; no amount of good works can get one into heaven if God has already decided that one is not part of “the elect” or “the godly”. During the past thirty years, the Huguenot contingent inside the Church of France, once vociferous partisans in favor of predestination, has largely discarded the idea. Louis, Bishop of Reims, has led the charge against predestination, arguing persuasively that not only does predestination do away with works-salvation, it also does away with faith-salvation. Since the salvation of every person ever born was set by God prior to the Universe, no amount of belief or disbelief in Christ can save a person, if predestination is true. Therefore, predestination is counter to Christianity and Christ’s scripture. The widespread acceptance of this idea among the Gallican clergy--which has taken twenty-odd years to percolate through the hierarchy--means that of the three congregations over which Henri is lord, the French are the least Calvinist.

This is not matched by religious thought in England, where ten years of anti-Catholic war have led to an ascendancy of the Puritans, a movement that calls for increased “purity” in the Church and its practices. These Puritans want an entirely presbyterian Church, a Church stripped of most of its “popish” trappings. For Henri, the logical endpoint of current trends is a national union between England, France, and Scotland, and that means a unified national Church. Obviously, the stark doctrinal differences between Anglicanism, Presbyterianism, and Gallicanism are not going to be overcome overnight. It will take generations, years of careful debate and theological dispute, to bring the three together, but right now the Puritans are a major obstacle to that union. Unfortunately for Henri, they enjoy a lot of support among Parliamentarians and the educated middle classes.

The terms of the Treaty of Geneva mean that Henri cannot simply persecute them into oblivion, even if he’d like to. Instead he takes a more subtle approach. First, to counter the influence of the Puritan-dominant Emmanuel and Sidney Sussex Colleges at Cambridge, Henri endows three colleges of his own at Oxford--King’s College, Valois College, and St. George’s College--and packs them with Gallican- and Anglican-sympathetic academics.

Then he goes on the warpath. For many years the Puritans have called for a more “preacher” based church, with less emphasis on liturgy and more on sermon. Henri decides to give them what they want. The Treaty of Geneva allows for the regulation of public expression of religion in the case of minority churches, and as far as Henri is concerned, public preaching definitely qualifies. Since the time of the Lollards, preachers in England are required to be licensed. Now Henri prepares to flood the kingdom with preachers--who preach a strict Gallican/Anglican line and ignore the Puritan doctrines. Meanwhile, no new licenses for Puritan preachers are to be approved. Only those who preach what Henri wants them to preach will get a chance to address the masses.

At the same time, Henri is aware that his interest in religion is purely political, and that puts him at a disadvantage. Never more than conventionally religious, Henri does not possess the fervor that the Puritan leadership does; his concern is domestic harmony, not orthodoxy. Therefore, he counsels his son, Henri Alexandre, that when he becomes king he must be sure to be more Protestant than the Puritans, to avoid giving them any gaps in which to thrust their daggers. Henri recognizes that, despite his efforts, these Puritans are not going away anytime soon.

[Derekc2]

'epic movie voice'

Henri the 3/1/9 has defeated the Spanish and forced Ferdinhand to the New World. How ever his greatest challenge isn't the catholics of France or foreign but are an protestant, internal enemy. They are highly religious and belive what they want is the correct path. They...Are....The..................Puritans.": )

[Grouchio]

I bloody hate Puritanism within the deepest reaches of my soul. I hope these squabbling goths are crushed or diminished soon in the future.

[Thespitron 6000]

The Voyage of the Ake-Teishi

Spring 1602: The Japanese are feeling their oats. They’ve unified their country, licked the stem rot, and founded their own colonies in Yosei Engoku, proving themselves to be the equals of the Europeans. At least, that’s what they’d like to believe. Europeans have been coming to Japan for fifty years, bringing with them new knowledge about the world and strange customs. Now the Japanese decide to return the favor.

The Ake-Teishi, a custom-built ship, sits at anchor in Osaka Harbor, preparing for the voyage of a lifetime. Its mission: to circumnavigate the globe, visiting India, Africa, and ultimately Europe and the New World. Quite a lot to ask of a nation that even twenty years prior had little in the way of a maritime tradition. But the Regent Oda thinks they are ready. Ready for Japan to take its rightful place in the wider world. Its crew waving goodbye to family and friends they know they might never see again, the Ake-Teishi slips from its berth and heads southwest, bound for parts as yet unknown.

[SavoyTruffle]

Those pesky Puritans! And Chinese potato dishes?

Not to mention the Japanese going on a circumnavigation.

[Grouchio]

Isn't Oda Nobunaga 68 or so by now? Who shall succeed him as Shogun?

[Kuld von Reyn]

Originally Posted by Grouchio

Isn't Oda Nobunaga 68 or so by now? Who shall succeed him as Shogun?

Oda Nobutada, assuming he's still alive in this timeline. Nobunaga had no shortage of sons.


(One of his sons apparently converted to Christianity OTL. He was born post-PoD, so no idea if he is even around here, but a Christian Shogunate of Japan would be fun.)

[Thespitron 6000]

This is an extremely rough map of the world in 1601, just to give you an idea of where everybody is.

[J. de Vos]

Thanks for such a crazily clean map of 1601! No German hodgepodge etc. Although maps don't always reflect reality. How unified is Danish Denmark, and for that matter are all nations moving towards more centralised government?

And that Wittelsback salient inbetween the republic and Danish Germany has to go...

[Grouchio]

Could the Dutch possibly take control of the Amazon and Guyana?
Will the Valois Empire ever take all of Ireland?

[naraht]

There are 4 Grey nations in the Balkans.

The one in the far SW is Serbia, The central one is Hungary, I think. I guess the remaining two are Moldavia (northeast) and Wallachia (southeast) (under Ottoman suzerainty right now?)

And on a more humorous note, what meaning do the lines in Antarctica have iTTL 1601?