An Age of Miracles: The Revival of Rhomanion

[Dumanios]

That was nice.

[Herzen's love-child]

Good one, 444!

[Dragos Cel Mare]

I feel so happy for Andreas. Of course, Herk or Nik might try and kill Veronica, or use her for their own ends.

[eliphas8]

Originally Posted by Dragos Cel Mare

I feel so happy for Andreas. Of course, Herk or Nik might try and kill Veronica, or use her for their own ends.

They would be so dumb to do that. I mean why piss off Andreas like that?

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Originally Posted by eliphas8

They would be so dumb to do that. I mean why piss off Andreas like that?

Good point, but I don't think they'll just tolerate her prescence, as well as the potential threat to their plans that she presents.

[Arrix85]

Originally Posted by Dragos Cel Mare

Good point, but I don't think they'll just tolerate her prescence, as well as the potential threat to their plans that she presents.

She'll be around for a while, didn't B444 mentioned that the last line contending during the ToT had yet to be born? the Veronican line sounds like a minor thing which could become an active player in the last round.

[Dragos Cel Mare]

Originally Posted by Arrix85

She'll be around for a while, didn't B444 mentioned that the last line contending during the ToT had yet to be born? the Veronican line sounds like a minor thing which could become an active player in the last round.

Again, good point.

[thekingsguard]

Nice update! But what of Andreas Jr?

[ed_montague]

As my good friend Nigel would say, "Smashing!"

I mean, really, I have no words. Andreas finds love again, the wounds of Smyrna have finally healed (although forever remembered), Herakleios shows himself as a smooth operator, and a new line of succession is formed...

...the male reproductive system is a wonderful and sometimes frightening thing.

Also, Andreas' imminent meeting with Andronikos, Junior, and Anna. Ohhhhh shit.

[SavoyTruffle]

I hope this summarizes my reaction.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Arrix85

I was referring to Heraklios, so in this case by "his son" I meant Konstantinos. And I've no clue why for Andreas his birth "changes everything"... maybe because it proves Heraklios is fertile? How is he in the succession line?


edit: I know, I know Romans don't have an official succession line, but...

They certainly do,but,sometimes it has to hold water...

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Trevayne

True, but the strategic advantages for Rhomania holding the straits remain whether or not Al Andalus is there. It is a strong reason to support Al Andalus as an ally and that should improve their chances of making it to the 20th century. The best outcome might be for Rhomania having Gibraltar ceded to them and Al Andalus serving as a buffer state around it. An OTL example would be how British Gibraltar was not invaded during WW2 because Hitler didn't want problems with Spain.

I think that the talk about Gibraltar means well but also spells a somewhat
defensive stanse,something an empire with Oceanic interests could not afford.Bases overseas and control of see routes dictate a more imperial approach to protect holdings and check intruders and contenders if necessary,That was why I was surprised with such a consentration of force in a single harbour in B444's future update.
I am not saying Gibraltar is not valuable for the control of the Mediterranean,probably necessary and depending what you make of it
you can isolate Mediterranean completely,if Suez is yours and you build it.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Dragos Cel Mare

Good point, but I don't think they'll just tolerate her prescence, as well as the potential threat to their plans that she presents.

Their first reaction would be a snobbish one,her accent will certainly provide reason for a lot of hilarity among the members of the royal family and wider aristocracy of Constantinople(Greeks,even to day,are very much against the existence of people with regional accents in their circle) and for some time they will be merriment;but later? probably it would be unthinkable for a child of that woman to claim a throne...the reaction would be diverse,unpredictable and in case of Nikiphoros probably
leathal.

[Trevayne]

Originally Posted by cimon

I think that the talk about Gibraltar means well but also spells a somewhat
defensive stanse,something an empire with Oceanic interests could not afford.Bases overseas and control of see routes dictate a more imperial approach to protect holdings and check intruders and contenders if necessary,That was why I was surprised with such a consentration of force in a single harbour in B444's future update.
I am not saying Gibraltar is not valuable for the control of the Mediterranean,probably necessary and depending what you make of it
you can isolate Mediterranean completely,if Suez is yours and you build it.

Sure, Rhomania may have extensive overseas interests, but unless it is going to be a superpower, so it can afford a first rate army and a first rate navy, it can't be the dominant seapower in the dreadnought era. Trying to do would compromise its land strength and that could be fatal, as the Kaiser’s Germany found out the hard way.

It can probably be a dominant seapower now (1497) and for the next few centuries, because the cost of entry is so (relatively) low. Heck, Venice was a major player in Mediterranean seapower as a city state. It is when steel ships come into play that the expenses start to get too great and even great power countries have to choose between landpower and seapower.

Now B444 could create conditions where Rhomanion could be the dominant seapower. It could grow to be a superpower, or he could just butterfly away the natural seapowers. Japan is out of the race for now, since it is balkanized. The US could be avoided the same way. The US as a single state is a natural seapower, since it has no serious threats on its land borders. A balkanized US would be a group of land powers (I always wondered how the US in TL-191 managed to build that big a navy, when it had to deal with the Confederacy on its southern border).

The Anglo-French Empire is perhaps the hardest to butterfly away, but a massive collapse that balkanized the British Isles might do it. Alternatively, if the empire became more tightly knit and saw its destiny as ruling Europe, its seapower might become an afterthought, or just kept at landpower levels.

For that matter, having a colonial empire or possessions does not necessarily require a big navy. The Netherlands, Spain, and Portugal, had colonial possessions well into the 20th century, over a hundred years after they ceased to have Great power navies, let alone seapower dominance. Granted, their continued possession of their colonies was conditional upon Great Britain’s consent, which might not be dignified for Rhomanion, even if it is more realistic. Again, the Kaiser’s Germany sought to build a fleet that could contend with Britaion and it did not survive the experience; mainly because its attempt for greater seapower meant it had insufficient landpower.


P.S. As for the defensiveness attributed to Gibraltar, please remember which power held it for centuries OTL (and still does). I don't really think they saw it as defensive. Instead, the Rock was one of their keys to admiralty and global seapower dominance.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Trevayne

Sure, Rhomania may have extensive overseas interests, but unless it is going to be a superpower, so it can afford a first rate army and a first rate navy, it can't be the dominant seapower in the dreadnought era. Trying to do would compromise its land strength and that could be fatal, as the Kaiser’s Germany found out the hard way.

It can probably be a dominant seapower now (1497) and for the next few centuries, because the cost of entry is so (relatively) low. Heck, Venice was a major player in Mediterranean seapower as a city state. It is when steel ships come into play that the expenses start to get too great and even great power countries have to choose between landpower and seapower.

Now B444 could create conditions where Rhomanion could be the dominant seapower. It could grow to be a superpower, or he could just butterfly away the natural seapowers. Japan is out of the race for now, since it is balkanized. The US could be avoided the same way. The US as a single state is a natural seapower, since it has no serious threats on its land borders. A balkanized US would be a group of land powers (I always wondered how the US in TL-191 managed to build that big a navy, when it had to deal with the Confederacy on its southern border).

The Anglo-French Empire is perhaps the hardest to butterfly away, but a massive collapse that balkanized the British Isles might do it. Alternatively, if the empire became more tightly knit and saw its destiny as ruling Europe, its seapower might become an afterthought, or just kept at landpower levels.

For that matter, having a colonial empire or possessions does not necessarily require a big navy. The Netherlands, Spain, and Portugal, had colonial possessions well into the 20th century, over a hundred years after they ceased to have Great power navies, let alone seapower dominance. Granted, their continued possession of their colonies was conditional upon Great Britain’s consent, which might not be dignified for Rhomanion, even if it is more realistic. Again, the Kaiser’s Germany sought to build a fleet that could contend with Britaion and it did not survive the experience; mainly because its attempt for greater seapower meant it had insufficient landpower.


P.S. As for the defensiveness attributed to Gibraltar, please remember which power held it for centuries OTL (and still does). I don't really think they saw it as defensive. Instead, the Rock was one of their keys to admiralty and global seapower dominance.

I have no problem with Byzantium holding Gibraltar,and by holding the straights of Dardanelles it has effectivelly sealed the Mediterranean along with Gibraltar;
My scepticism is the following:assuming that Byzantium doesn't have an extensive empire ,but rather a strategic one(eastern south Africa,control of the straights of Malacca,Ceylon, part of Fillipines,Borneo Azores(?) I also believe that Byzantium will have annexed Egypt and will have presented a united sea front with Ethiopia facing East,then a very strong fleet is needed due to extensive coastlines;and Byzantine colonial populations That is why I chose Eastern South Africa which had vast unpopulated ereas and included Zululand a well defined country nationalistic and homogeneous that could be very good friends with the Byzantines. Also the land holds some of the best natural harbours:Richard's bay(with whatever name they will hold it) which is next to Durban and is vast,Port Elizabeth and east London.The same applies to other places in the Indian Ocean etc.(
(by the way,regarding your name,excellent novel....)

[Basileus444]

Thanks.

Herakleios holds no official title, save that of Imperial prince. But he is able to leverage that into unofficial power, which is what enabled him to issue the decree in his and not Demetrios' name. His older half-brother saw it just as a tax exemption for some no-name village, so if Herakleios wants credit for it, it's no big deal.

The reason why Herakleios is unsuitable for the throne is physical. Everyone knows he's not the healthiest of individuals, and that has raised concern about whether or not he could sire children. An infertile emperor is a bad thing, and also the Byzantines believed that Emperors shouldn't have obvious physical blemishes (part of the whole Vicegerent of God thing). Herakleios has shown that that isn't an issue, so while his health is still bad, one of the main arguments, and the most convincing, is now invalid.

Andreas Jr. will be appearing in the next update.

[Tongera]

Originally Posted by Basileus444

Thanks.

Herakleios holds no official title, save that of Imperial prince. But he is able to leverage that into unofficial power, which is what enabled him to issue the decree in his and not Demetrios' name. His older half-brother saw it just as a tax exemption for some no-name village, so if Herakleios wants credit for it, it's no big deal.

The reason why Herakleios is unsuitable for the throne is physical. Everyone knows he's not the healthiest of individuals, and that has raised concern about whether or not he could sire children. An infertile emperor is a bad thing, and also the Byzantines believed that Emperors shouldn't have obvious physical blemishes (part of the whole Vicegerent of God thing). Herakleios has shown that that isn't an issue, so while his health is still bad, one of the main arguments, and the most convincing, is now invalid.

Andreas Jr. will be appearing in the next update.

If he is infertile, then why is he even considered. That would be bad in those times, but particularly in Byzantium.

Also, what sources did you use for the Byzantine economy?

[ed_montague]

Originally Posted by Tongera

If he is infertile, then why is he even considered. That would be bad in those times, but particularly in Byzantium.

He's just produced a son. Very few infertile men can do that.

[Avitus]

Originally Posted by ed_montague

He's just produced a son. Very few infertile men can do that.

Only an infertile man who happens to be a son of Andreas Senior to be precise

[ed_montague]

Originally Posted by Avitus

Only an infertile man who happens to be a son of Andreas Senior to be precise

Andreas Komnenos: So virile, his offspring defy the laws of nature.