Peshawar Lancers Redux: North America

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Claudius

Question: The Canon does not mention German-speaking survivor states at all, so far as I remember. Doesn't it seem reasonable that post-Fall that a new Volkwanderung took place. Austria and the German Empire were populous, technically advanced, and scientifically progressive. Bismark was at least as intelligent as Disraeli and would have looked for a way to save his people as well.

I'm thinking that an obvious place to go would have been Anatolia, with a mixed population of Austrians, Germans andcentral and southern Magyars and Slavs. Obviously, they would have to shove the Turks out of the way, but given the military and tech edge A-H and the German Empire had, not to mention 100+ million population it seems very doable.

Just askin'

Comments?

They could move into Italy or indeed the southern Balkans (and Anatolia if they are still in good shape enough to defeat the Ottomans).
The easiest way would be for A-H to get one piece of territory and Germany another, but a joint system of two Emperors and bicameral Diet with seats allocated by population and kingdom could also work.

[altwere]

I like it.

[DarkAvenger]

I take it John Fremont is dead? Or did I miss it?

Anyways, a surviving German state is possible, though I doubt they could push all the way to Anatolia. I like the proposed idea of the state being centered around the Balkans and northern Italy. And I think you mean the northern Balkans.

A state with two emperors sounds interesting, but A-H is a dual monarchy. Shouldn't it be a triple monarchy if Germany gets integrated?

And how about Spain and Russia?

[Claudius]

Good question about Fremont. He might have actually been on his way to Phoenix when the Fall happened. He would have been in his 70's and conditions were very dicey. so he may well have been one of the millions who perished at that time. If he made it to the Territories, he would have met up with the Indian uprisings and Mexican meddling in that part to the country.

Spain was not as badly hit with tsunamis, I think, as Portugal The climate would have encouraged expansion into Spanish Morocco

We know from the Canon that Russia was absolutely devastated by the Fall. Assuming some of the Romanov clan survived, the capital city may have been moved by whomever was Tsar to the southwards. However given the state of Russian society and infrastructure, LOTS of starvation and chaos. I expect that horse nomads from central Asia would have shown up as well just to make things worse. I'm thinking that a ultra-Orthodox Patriarchate would be running things in union with the Tsar for a while although local aristocrats might have contested that, like the old boyars did in the days of Ivan.

[Claudius]

The problem the Germans have is geographic too. The Alpine passes are easily defended, especially as they get snow clogged.

[Roisterer]

I haven't kept up with this, more's the pity.

Claudius, you have really done us proud here.

So now there's going to be a second civil war? If it's anything more than a big police action, surely Mexico will be the main beneficiary, at least, while it lasts.

And Memphis still doesn't know what's going on in California?

Regards

R

[Roisterer]

A couple of points about German migration:

* The Russians always coveted Constantinople as the original center of their religion, and tried their best to obtain it from the late eighteenth century onwards. The event would give them the perfect excuse. I don't really like Stirling's ....unusual development of Russia, but I can accept that a lot of it becomes almost uninhabitable for a long time (more nomadic people like the Sami may survive better, and roam further south, but if you rely on agriculture, you're done). There will be a huge incentive for a mass of peasants to head south. However, it won't be good for those who head for the Caucasus.

The event is before the Berlin Congress of 1878, so Bulgaria and Albania are still part of the Ottoman Empire (as well as modern Fyrom, Thrace, Thessaly, Bosnia, and southern Serbia)

* As has been mentioned, the German population will find it tough to cross the Alps after the first winter, but the Austrians and Slovenes have an easier time. Some of them might head for Italy. Other Germans and Hungarians might head down the Danube (perhaps more easily when it is frozen?) and then on to Bulgaria and Thrace.

... which is where they run into the Russians.

* The Ottoman Empire was not a complete pushover militarily in the nineteenth century (or WWI for that matter), and they would be much better organised than their desperate attackers, plus they are fighting on home ground, espcially in Asia Minor.

I see from the map that Anatolia is mountainous, and the winters there are going to be very severe. This is around the same latitude as the Sierras in California.

Do all the weather patterns shift southwards? If so, north Africa and the Middle East may become much better for agriculture, at least until the weather patterns revert again.

Some population figures for 1870:
Germany 39.2m
Austria-Hungary ca 28m (rough calculation)
Russia 88m (might not include Poland or Finland)

Regards

R

[Claudius]

Austria controls Trieste and has a navy, so a marine route to take the Adriatic Italian coast seems likely. Germany, if not cooperating with A-H would need to press down across the Danubic plain towards Bucharest and then to Bulgaria and Macedonia as has been mentioned.

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by Claudius

Spain was not as badly hit with tsunamis, I think, as Portugal The climate would have encouraged expansion into Spanish Morocco

Spain will have suffered in the northern coast (but not much inland given the terrain) and in the Guadalquivir valley. Portugal will have lost more than half of its population (check the census of 1878 - I recommend a download and opening it with Acrobat or a similar programme that can read images). For Spain, this might help.

[Claudius]

September, 1887

Wyatt Earp took the advantage of a few spare hours to relax and enjoy a cigar and a whiskey on the front porch of the Palmer House hotel. To help pass the time he was reading the latest edition of The Texas Advocate, perhaps the most widely read paper in the state. His brother Morgan and Billy McCarty were busy at a saloon a few blocks away earning some money at the poker tables. (Both Wyatt and Morgan had learned a few tricks at that game from their old friend Holiday, and few men were so bold to challenge the cold-eyed Morgan or the wild McCarty when an unexpected card or two appeared.) Later, the three planned to meet for supper before beginning their regular employment as peace officers for the growing town of Dallas. Dallas was a cow town and as such always had need of talents such as theirs. Mostly they kept drunken cowboys away from the quality folks and made sure that the merchants and bankers of the growing town went unmolested about their work. It was a decent living, although all three men after several months of it were growing bored.

The paper, eminent though it was, was printed on poor-quality paper with blunt type and cost an exorbitant fifty cents in Texas paper currency or ten cents in silver. The headlines were full of news about the struggle between the Federal government and various state militias who had risen up against it. More than a month ago, according to the paper there had been a serious fight at Jackson, Tennessee over control of the rail junction there. Government forces had won the day, although at a cost of more than 200 lives. Other clashes had apparently happened in Kentucky and in Missouri, where rumor had it that the Federals had been soundly defeated. The Texas legislature had recently passed an Act of Neutrality, stating that the Lone Star State had no intention of involving itself in the quarrel between political factions elsewhere in the country. To the contrary, according to the paper, “Texas would happily supply beef, leather and suchlike to both sides but she would vigorously defend the territorial integrity of both Texas and the Indian Territory to its north with the state forces at its disposal.”

In other news, the Consul of Mexico in New Orleans had issued a statement that the Congress of the Republic of Mexico “stood shoulder to shoulder with the legitimate government of the United States and would do everything in its power to assist President Burke and his administration in quelling the apparent rebellion that has broken out against it.”

Earp shook his head in amazement. He knew what he had seen with his own eyes out in the Territories, but apparently few in the ruling class wanted to believe the stories that he and others had brought back. At least not officially. The state of Texas, he had heard, had recently stepped up military patrols along both the Rio Grande and in West Texas. Sherman himself had come out of retirement and had overseen the recruitment efforts now being pressed forward by the Legislature. He had the feeling that this humdrum interlude in his life might be ending shortly…

At that moment, a familiar voice broke through his reverie.

“Wyatt old man! How good to see you! I’ve been looking all over this town for you!”

Earp would have recognized that quick, high-pitched Northern twang anywhere. He looked up to see the broad, toothy grin of Captain Roosevelt and with him, a pretty young lady and a sturdy boy who already was beginning to resemble his father.

[altwere]

My My things are picking up again. Good up date.

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by Roisterer

A couple of points about German migration:

* The Russians always coveted Constantinople as the original center of their religion, and tried their best to obtain it from the late eighteenth century onwards. The event would give them the perfect excuse. I don't really like Stirling's ....unusual development of Russia, but I can accept that a lot of it becomes almost uninhabitable for a long time (more nomadic people like the Sami may survive better, and roam further south, but if you rely on agriculture, you're done). There will be a huge incentive for a mass of peasants to head south. However, it won't be good for those who head for the Caucasus.

The event is before the Berlin Congress of 1878, so Bulgaria and Albania are still part of the Ottoman Empire (as well as modern Fyrom, Thrace, Thessaly, Bosnia, and southern Serbia)

* As has been mentioned, the German population will find it tough to cross the Alps after the first winter, but the Austrians and Slovenes have an easier time. Some of them might head for Italy. Other Germans and Hungarians might head down the Danube (perhaps more easily when it is frozen?) and then on to Bulgaria and Thrace.

... which is where they run into the Russians.

* The Ottoman Empire was not a complete pushover militarily in the nineteenth century (or WWI for that matter), and they would be much better organised than their desperate attackers, plus they are fighting on home ground, espcially in Asia Minor.

I see from the map that Anatolia is mountainous, and the winters there are going to be very severe. This is around the same latitude as the Sierras in California.

Do all the weather patterns shift southwards? If so, north Africa and the Middle East may become much better for agriculture, at least until the weather patterns revert again.

Some population figures for 1870:
Germany 39.2m
Austria-Hungary ca 28m (rough calculation)
Russia 88m (might not include Poland or Finland)

Regards

R

Sounds like The Great War starts early in this TL, although the duration of it would be quite a bit shorter than our WW I. Germany will not be able to rely on her industrial might for long, Maybe two years at most. Russia will be in much worse shape since one of the strikes was in the vicinity of Moscow and in 1878, her rail net was very limited I suspect.

Does anyone know if the Ottomans had much manufacturing capability, or was most of their modern weaponry and technology purchased from the West?

Perhaps, in the final stages, the alt-Great War is fought with the technology of the 18th or even the 17th century as the availability of modern explosives, etc. run low and starving peasants rely on edged weapons in their attacks

[Shadow Knight]

Originally Posted by Claudius

Sounds like The Great War starts early in this TL, although the duration of it would be quite a bit shorter than our WW I. Germany will not be able to rely on her industrial might for long, Maybe two years at most. Russia will be in much worse shape since one of the strikes was in the vicinity of Moscow and in 1878, her rail net was very limited I suspect.

Does anyone know if the Ottomans had much manufacturing capability, or was most of their modern weaponry and technology purchased from the West?

Perhaps, in the final stages, the alt-Great War is fought with the technology of the 18th or even the 17th century as the availability of modern explosives, etc. run low and starving peasants rely on edged weapons in their attacks

I believe the Ottomans got most of their stuff from other nations. Although I think they had some domestic industry that provided some military gear.

[Archangel]

Texas might be compelled to side with the revels if the Government or Mexico (or Mexican proxies like the Chosen) intervene.

[DarkAvenger]

For some reason, when I read about the unfolding scenario in the U.S., it reminds me of the Mexican Revolution, if you don't mind me saying.

Also, the Great War starting early? Why is that, since everyone should be focused on survival in the face of the terrible winters?

[Claudius]

Only in the sense that Russia,Germany, the Ottoman Empire and others will be fighting in a war for existence given that the more northerly powers are going to have to move their populations in order to survive. Germany has no India to flee to and does not have many options aside from pushing southwards and taking already settled lands

[CoomerREC7]

Originally Posted by Claudius

Only in the sense that Russia,Germany, the Ottoman Empire and others will be fighting in a war for existence given that the more northerly powers are going to have to move their populations in order to survive. Germany has no India to flee to and does not have many options aside from pushing southwards and taking already settled lands

And that is the Balkans, which the Ottomans mostly own, and they're going to be hit hard by a combination of fleeing nations. They might not live to see the turning of the century depending on how hard and how fast the blows are coming.

[DarkAvenger]

Shouldn't it be known as the Balkan Wars?

[Cythia]

Originally Posted by DarkAvenger

Shouldn't it be known as the Balkan Wars?

Or maybe the "Wars of Northern Aggression"?

[Claudius]

Originally Posted by Cythia

Or maybe the "Wars of Northern Aggression"?

Oh my!