"The Bloody Man"

[Ares96]

And just when you thought the situation couldn't get any messier…

Brilliant piece, Ed. The Agitators won't have an easy time asserting their control of the West Country.

And just because, the border between Dorset and Hampshire seems off; Bournemouth was in Hampshire at this time, wasn't it?

[stevep]

EdT

Great to see more of this. Looking interesting and promising as well with the royalist/foreign forces fairly stymied. Pity the Comte du Crequy caught that bullet as he was doing the republican cause good service. Hopefully Blake, although over-confident about his hopes at Kingsbridge can at least handle them and secure the south.

I think a lot will depend on what happens to the Salvation army and also to the 'Prophet'. Not sure what the latter is up to but he's definitely given Blood a few shocks.

You did hint a while back that the worst of the suffering was nearly over, at least for England and hopefully things will be resolved shortly but still have to see what develops.

Steve

[Beedok]

Terrifyingly excellent.

[Blackadder mk 2]

So according to the map, it seems that all the main players of the Civil War, or their armies so to say, are about to meet one another at 'Avalon' or on the Salvation Army's way there.

Great to see this TL back EdT, hope to see more.

[Lord Roem]

Superb as always Ed. I would be interested to see the sort of economic legacy of this war given the level of urban devastation in comparison to OTL affecting the relationship between town and city.

The development of a Yeoman, rather than Merchant dominated middle-class seems likely to result from this.

That aside, I'm afraid I don't have much more to add thus far, but it is a damn good job!

[EdT]

Glad people are pleased to see this back- its been nice to spend some time writing again! Hopefully I'll be able to manage semi- regular updates for the near future, although my work situation is still a bit ridiculous so I can't guarantee it. Determined to set aside some time for this though, and of course your comments and musings make writing the thing worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Ares96

Brilliant piece, Ed. The Agitators won't have an easy time asserting their control of the West Country.

Not with the French/Royalist army knocking around, no. On the other hand, the fact that it's foreigners marching around the place has placed the common people firmly in the Agitator camp, so they'll have a lot of popular support. IOTL northern Dorset and southern Somerset was real clubman country, which I've alluded to in previous posts. But ITTL, the likes of 'John Somerset' won't be inclined to sit between the two armies and invite both sides over for free cider, as they did IOTL; they might not be fond of assorted agitators and pilgrims, but at least they're Englishmen, which is more than can be said for the Royalist force.

The only place in the West where the arrival of foreign troops hasn't soured things for the King is Cornwall, which still remains genuinely and defiantly Royalist. But the Cornish are not inclined to cross the Tamar at this point, so they only have a marginal influence on things.

Originally Posted by Ares96

And just because, the border between Dorset and Hampshire seems off; Bournemouth was in Hampshire at this time, wasn't it?

Looking at it, I have put the Dorset border a little far west- the original map didn't have county boundaries so I was doing it by eye. Bournemouth is technically in Dorset IOTL, but it's worth pointing out that at this point in time the spot where it stands is entirely uninhibited- the town was only founded in the early 19th century and nobody lived between Poole and Christchurch at all, the land being fairly desolate heath used for sheep grazing. In the 1640s, it's all about Poole- it was a much more prominent place than today.

Originally Posted by stevep

Great to see more of this. Looking interesting and promising as well with the royalist/foreign forces fairly stymied. Pity the Comte du Crequy caught that bullet as he was doing the republican cause good service. Hopefully Blake, although over-confident about his hopes at Kingsbridge can at least handle them and secure the south.

Blake is a seriously talented and competent man, so the Agitator effort in the region is is good hands. He is outgunned though by Schomberg and his mercenaries. Victory for either side at this point will take some doing.

Originally Posted by stevep

I think a lot will depend on what happens to the Salvation army and also to the 'Prophet'. Not sure what the latter is up to but he's definitely given Blood a few shocks.

Yes, everything does hinge on the Prophet and the Salvation Army. They know exactly what they're up to, of course- not sure anyone else does though!

Originally Posted by stevep

You did hint a while back that the worst of the suffering was nearly over, at least for England and hopefully things will be resolved shortly but still have to see what develops.

The second English Civil War will be over in two posts' time, I'll say that. This is not necessarily good news for Scotland, Ireland or anywhere else, for that matter...

Originally Posted by Blackadder mk 2

So according to the map, it seems that all the main players of the Civil War, or their armies so to say, are about to meet one another at 'Avalon' or on the Salvation Army's way there.

Indeed so. It's all as the Theaurau John and the Prophetess predicted, of course. All roads lead to Marston Magna, and that's where the war in the south west will be decided. "Gueith Camlann", and all that.

Originally Posted by Blackadder mk 2

Great to see this TL back EdT, hope to see more.

Thanks- and thanks for the PM, I'll reply over the weekend.

Originally Posted by Lord Roem

Superb as always Ed. I would be interested to see the sort of economic legacy of this war given the level of urban devastation in comparison to OTL affecting the relationship between town and city.

The development of a Yeoman, rather than Merchant dominated middle-class seems likely to result from this.

We'll certainly get a glimpse of Britain a generation down the road from the Wars of the Five Kingdoms; I have some quite firm ideas of what things would look like.

You raise an interesting point on what sort of society would result. Whoever wins, there's going to be upheaval, but its worth remembering that support for the two sides cuts across class lines; while a lot of the aristocracy are on the side of the Engagers, a lot of the City Magnates are actually supporting the Agitators. If the King loses, I can see an awful lot of rhetoric about the stout-hearted English Yeoman, but it's definitely not a given that the polity that results would pay more than lip service to that. And if the King wins, all bets are off!

Also, on the devastation front, it's worth remembering that the provinces have suffered very badly during the war too, and just as OTL the different phases of the war have affected different parts of the country, so the destruction is pretty evenly spread. For all that London is destroyed, IOTL after the fire the city was back on its feet astonishingly quickly, and everyone carried on where they left off. While the capital also has food shortages and a war to consider ITTL, I don't think it will permanently damage London's long term development- although, as I've mentioned, the circumstances of the fire means that ITTL none of the building improvements that occurred IOTL will happen, leaving the place even more squalid. This is definitely a London which could see a second fire in a generation's time.

[Thande]

Yeah, historians since the nineteenth century have tended to portray the English Civil War as more of a class struggle than it actually was. I believe at the time it was portrayed more as an example of the old phrase in Matthew 10:

to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

i.e. a matter of personal conscience that divided families regardless of social class and wealth.

Anyway, good to see this back. As always I enjoy the glimpses at odd anecdotes from OTL. What happened to the defenders of Colchester after they were enslaved and sent off to the West Indies, I wonder? Was there any legacy from that?

[Blackadder mk 2]

Originally Posted by EdT

Indeed so. It's all as the Theaurau John and the Prophetess predicted, of course. All roads lead to Marston Magna, and that's where the war in the south west will be decided. "Gueith Camlann", and all that.

Thanks- and thanks for the PM, I'll reply over the weekend.

Theaurau John is planning something or expecting something bigger then a birth in a battlefield once these sides meet up, I just know it is. I have the feeling that this is going to cause complications for the King and his deteriorating situation while also damaging the over-confident Parliament with them sending their soldiers towards Yorkshire. Either way, the situation in England, and this is just a prediction, seems to be coming to a climax and this battle might be the deciding factor in terms of victory, I can see some future AH.com that somehow survived butterflies having PODs focusing on "Theasurau John becomes King of England" and the like due to the increased notoriety.

You're welcome about that and thanks for the reply schedule, it's a relief to have finally done Great Third Way and what better way to celebrate then to find this updated.

We'll certainly get a glimpse of Britain a generation down the road from the Wars of the Five Kingdoms; I have some quite firm ideas of what things would look like.

You raise an interesting point on what sort of society would result. Whoever wins, there's going to be upheaval, but its worth remembering that support for the two sides cuts across class lines; while a lot of the aristocracy are on the side of the Engagers, a lot of the City Magnates are actually supporting the Agitators. If the King loses, I can see an awful lot of rhetoric about the stout-hearted English Yeoman, but it's definitely not a given that the polity that results would pay more than lip service to that. And if the King wins, all bets are off!

That will be interesting, to say the very least.

It's as Thande says, this seems to be less class-based and more personal choice based. I can see more of a class group joining the King's banner and more of another joining Parliament but I think it may be more propaganda if anything, though some names may go down in history either way such as Winston "you'll never stop writing about us, no matter how obscure you go" Churchill or Robert Blake who may have a higher reputation if he defeats the French and becomes loved by the English people for it.

One thing that I like is how Cromwell, while being the man who sparks the changes of it all by leaving, is not the main focus of this TL more then it is the effects of his presence, or lack of it for a better word, in the English Civil War along with other generals and how it can make things that much worse in terms of a weaker damage repair and a much longer Civil War, or Revolution which implies a unification at some point in this TL or shortly after the events. It's all very exciting, well done on that Ed.

[Kaiphranos]

Good to see this back up and running again! I look forward to finding what Cromwell is up to at some point as well...

[Archangel]

Good update, Ed!

[EdT]

Originally Posted by Blackadder mk 2

Theaurau John is planning something or expecting something bigger then a birth in a battlefield once these sides meet up, I just know it is.

Well essentially, he's expecting the newborn Messiah to vanquish the forces of hell at the battle of Armageddon, bringing on the end of days and the destruction of the earth. But then it's worth remembering that he's completely mad!

Originally Posted by Blackadder mk 2

I can see some future AH.com that somehow survived butterflies having PODs focusing on "Theaurau John becomes King of England" and the like due to the increased notoriety.

Oh quite- there will be a thousand tales of the Prophet floating around, some true, some false, and all adding to the general mystique. I can certainly see him being a prime target for ATL allohistorians.

Originally Posted by Blackadder mk 2

One thing that I like is how Cromwell, while being the man who sparks the changes of it all by leaving, is not the main focus of this TL more then it is the effects of his presence, or lack of it for a better word, in the English Civil War along with other generals and how it can make things that much worse in terms of a weaker damage repair and a much longer Civil War, or Revolution which implies a unification at some point in this TL or shortly after the events. It's all very exciting, well done on that Ed.

Yes- as I've said before, my other TLs have generally been taking somebody comparatively obscure in a turbulent period and throwing them into the mix, while this one is very much examining the consequences of doing the reverse. I will get back to Cromwell, as what happens in New England is important too, but it's not the main focus of the TL. That is very much the British Revolution.

Originally Posted by Kaiphranos

Good to see this back up and running again! I look forward to finding what Cromwell is up to at some point as well...

Thanks. There will be more on Cromwell in three posts' time- the next two posts will wrap up the Second English Civil War and then we'll cross the Atlantic. As for what Cromwell is up to, it's fair to say that the renewed fighting in England is causing massive ructions in the colonies- and the slide of the Netherlands into civil war is almost as important.

[The Professor]

Nice to see this back.

I really do wonder what will happen - it's all a bit of a mess!!

[Arachnid]

Great to see this back.

[PCSwitaj]

Glad to see this back up and running Ed, and such a great update too! I'm looking forward to see how you wrap up the civil war in two posts. It will be interesting to see what faultlines develop in New England because of the second round of fighting as well, although with the Netherlands entrance into the war perhaps there is a unifying objective a little bit to the west...

Again, glad to see an update Ed.

[anarchjoe]

Very interesting been following this for a while, it wouldn't surprise me if England ends up being ruled by Theareau John, then things wpuld be fun for Scotland etc Maybe the salvation army goes to the tactic of "Let's fight the winner"

[Blackadder mk 2]

Originally Posted by anarchjoe

Very interesting been following this for a while, it wouldn't surprise me if England ends up being ruled by Theareau John, then things wpuld be fun for Scotland etc Maybe the salvation army goes to the tactic of "Let's fight the winner"

That all depends on the fire and destruction actually being true instead of the delusions of two crazy people and a groups of desperate people hoping for an answer.

But again, it sounds like something that an alternate AH.com would look at.

[Jape]

I'm glad (not sure its the right word TBH) you have highlighted the grimmer side of total war during the ECW. People sometimes seem to think Grant and Sherman at the earliest invented 'modern warfare' and back in ye olden tymes it was all gallant charges and marching to fifes. You've done a really good job of capturing the effect on regular citizens. Also the defenders of Poole mocking the Royalist with feasts on the battlements is priceless.

I'm hoping the Agitators pull it out of the bag. Not really for any personal bias but I have a soft spot for Robert Blake and would like to see him get a fitting place in British history that his political choices denied him IOTL.

[Sol Zagato]

So we have a scene where a brilliant, masked madman is being interrogated by a slimy-seeming fellow.

Blood: "Was getting caught part of your plan?"

Theaurau: "Of course!"

Theaurau will always talk with Bane's voice now. Can't get that out of my head.

[SenatorChickpea]

EdT, you're an artist.

Roughly how long does this timeline have left in it? It does feel that things are reaching their last act.

[Jape]

Originally Posted by Sol Zagato

So we have a scene where a brilliant, masked madman is being interrogated by a slimy-seeming fellow.

Blood: "Was getting caught part of your plan?"

Theaurau: "Of course!"

Theaurau will always talk with Bane's voice now. Can't get that out of my head.

Ha, that is fine by me!