Holy Roman Empire

[Willmatron]

What's the latest possible time the Holy Roman Empire could have survived?

[Falecius]

Originally Posted by Willmatron

What's the latest possible time the Holy Roman Empire could have survived?

Even today, with an early enough POD and an appropriate set of circumstances.

[Dreadnought]

I guess if Napoleon never rose to power, we could possibly see it being used, in name only, to the modern day.

[Willmatron]

I'm writing a novel set in an alternate WW1 with an extended Little Ice Age as it was called. So I imagine Germany needs a southern Mediterrean port.

[Simon]

Depends on what you want, keeping a Holy Roman Empire that was just made up of Germany and Austria - which could include Trieste for your Mediterranean port via the Adriatic - with the Low Countries and Italy having broken off might be easier than it including everything. It would also nicely mirror the German Empire and Austria-Hungary alliance of the Great War. Off the top of my head the easiest way I can think of is that either Austria is knocked down enough to lose Hungary and the Transleithania to become part of a Prussian dominated Holy Roman Empire, or that Austria concentrates on dominating Germany rather than Hungary butterflying away the Transleithania and keeps the Holy Roman Empire going and modernises it instead with themselves in charge.

[Rainbow Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Simon

Depends on what you want, keeping a Holy Roman Empire that was just made up of Germany and Austria - which could include Trieste for your Mediterranean port via the Adriatic - with the Low Countries and Italy having broken off might be easier than it including everything. It would also nicely mirror the German Empire and Austria-Hungary alliance of the Great War. Off the top of my head the easiest way I can think of is that either Austria is knocked down enough to lose Hungary and the Transleithania to become part of a Prussian dominated Holy Roman Empire, or that Austria concentrates on dominating Germany rather than Hungary butterflying away the Transleithania and keeps the Holy Roman Empire going and modernises it instead with themselves in charge.

The question that comes to mind though is would France or any of Germany's other neighbors allow that to happen?

[Willmatron]

France and Britian are busy expanding into Africa and the Middle East. As the Little Ice age worsens. Britian hopes that the Scandanavian migration south and France and Russia can destabilize Germany whiles it uses British and Indian soldiers to gain more territory in the Middle East and Africa.

[Dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Willmatron

I'm writing a novel set in an alternate WW1 with an extended Little Ice Age as it was called. So I imagine Germany needs a southern Mediterrean port.

Well, de facto the Holy Roman Empire included a good deal of Northern Italy (in 1789), so if the HRE centralizes even at late stage, we could see it in possession with several Mediterranean ports.



Perhaps the POD could be Napoleon getting stuck in Egypt or something (after the Republic of Venice was annexed by Austria, but it lost its other Northern Italian Possessions), then the coalition beats France, and takes back all of its land. That would leave an Austrian dominated Northern Italy, and a much stronger Austria (and prussia to an extent) able to centralize the Holy Roman Empire

[Elfwine]

The Austro-Prussian rivalry does not really support the HRE being centralized at this point, though. Or the existing imperial laws.

Might linger on, sure, but not centralize.

[Willmatron]

Maybe Napoleon gets enamored by Egyptian ideals and tries to help France keep Egypt. France gets wealth that slows down the Revolution and Napoleon gets to be king of Egypt. Britian pours more troops into Arabia to balance out the French influence.

This allows Prussia and Austria to come to an understanding and strengthen an alliance in Europe that may allow them to merge together.

[Falecius]

Originally Posted by Willmatron

I'm writing a novel set in an alternate WW1 with an extended Little Ice Age as it was called. So I imagine Germany needs a southern Mediterrean port.

Trieste might work.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Sparkle

The question that comes to mind though is would France or any of Germany's other neighbors allow that to happen?

Well people were mostly okay with an Austrian led Holy Roman Empire and then German Confederation all the way up to the Austro-Prussian War which everyone expected Prussia to lose quite badly IIRC. If it's just what would become our timeline's German Empire with an Austria that also includes Slovenia for an Adriatic port I don't see why people would object too much.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Simon

Well people were mostly okay with an Austrian led Holy Roman Empire and then German Confederation all the way up to the Austro-Prussian War which everyone expected Prussia to lose quite badly IIRC. If it's just what would become our timeline's German Empire with an Austria that also includes Slovenia for an Adriatic port I don't see why people would object too much.

The same reason people objected loudly to France trying to spread its power and influence. A loosely united HRE is one thing, a united HRE that acts as one nation where the Emperor is at least a semi-absolute monarch is another beast entirely.

[Maniakes]

Maybe if Napoleon were somehow defeated at the battle of Austerlitz in 1805, with Napoleon himself killed or captured. The victorious Third Coalition allies might be interested in strengthening the HRE as a check against France in the future, and France would be in no immediate position to object.

[Emperor Constantine]

Maybe during the Congress of Vienna ,after Napoleons fall, the German confederation instead becomes a reborn Holy Roman Empire?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Maniakes

Maybe if Napoleon were somehow defeated at the battle of Austerlitz in 1805, with Napoleon himself killed or captured. The victorious Third Coalition allies might be interested in strengthening the HRE as a check against France in the future, and France would be in no immediate position to object.

I actually started a thread asking about how realistic Napoleon losing at Austerlitz might of been but didn't get any interest. If the French were absolutely routed and Napoleon killed then it's going to seriously boost the prestige of the Austrian Empire and Francis II personally, since he was there so probably takes most of the credit, both as Archduke and as Emperor. It also butterflies away the Confederation of the Rhine, opens up Italy in the dismantling of the Kingdom of Italy, deprives Prussia of her spoils from being one of the victors later, and also possibly avoids the German Mediatisation since I could see Austria wanting to restore a number of states and keep Germany a collection of smaller countries that could be more easily influenced. Most importantly of all it avoids Francis II dissolving the Empire to keep Napoleon from ever becoming Holy Roman Emperor.

[Strategos' Risk]

Originally Posted by Emperor Constantine

Maybe during the Congress of Vienna ,after Napoleons fall, the German confederation instead becomes a reborn Holy Roman Empire?

Yeah, I don't understand this. Why didn't the Congress simply revive the HRE?

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Strategos' Risk

Yeah, I don't understand this. Why didn't the Congress simply revive the HRE?

None of the great powers wanted to? It wouldn't serve any purpose to the Congress.

[False Dmitri]

Originally Posted by Dreadnought

Well, de facto the Holy Roman Empire included a good deal of Northern Italy (in 1789), so if the HRE centralizes even at late stage, we could see it in possession with several Mediterranean ports.

But those Italian states were not at all actively participating in the Empire at that point. The imperial title was even more just-for-tradition's-sake than in Germany.

I'd love to see a world where the imperial Crown is stripped of any and all remaining power and becomes something that just trades places between the Habsburgs and Hohenzollerns, even as they conduct their wars against each other. Not terribly realistic, but fun.