What Would A Modern Day War Plan Red Look Like?

[Puget Sound]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Red

So, what would a modern day War Plan Red look like, and in what non-ASB situation (hard, I know, but the fun is in the challenge ) would it be needed?

[Wolf Tengu]

The US takes Canada but probably couldn't hold down all of the other countries.

Not that it'd need to, they'd be pretty much unassailable.

[Nckdictator]

I'm fairly sure the sinking or capture of the Vanguard class submarines would be a immediate goal.

[BlondieBC]

Taking out the Canadian Air Force would be the #1 priority. We then focus on the military forces and bases. It will be a short war, but Canada will inflict some painful setbacks to the USA. The largest number of troops will be needed for the occupation and administration. I am not sure the Canadian military is as strong as Saddam's was at his strength, so a 100 hour war sounds about right.

[David S Poepoe]

The American Hockey League would collapse as most of its players return to Canada to take up arms against the US.

There wouldn't be any outright annexation of Canada but there would be a prolonged occupation at the end of which the US would demonstrate again that it is terrible at nation building.

[tallthinkev]

All US bases in the 'empire' would attacked and over run a in a matter of hours. Thousands dead and tens of thousands captured, including women and children. The US gives up within two days.

[RamscoopRaider]

Originally Posted by tallthinkev

All US bases in the 'empire' would attacked and over run a in a matter of hours. Thousands dead and tens of thousands captured, including women and children. The US gives up within two days.

This isn't ASB, if war plan red is implemented those bases would have been evacuated beforehand or had their defenses strengthened

[dropbearabroad]

Any US base is a goner. Any reinforcements that can be flown in will be light, they can't hope to withstand a concerted attack by an opponent with armour and artillery. Within a few hours there would be no air support, artillery bombardments can easily close down an airfield, so whatever defences you have for the bases just get surrounded and pummelled into submission.

Evacuating bases takes time and you can say goodbye to any hope of surprise. What does Canada do in the meantime, let alone the other countries of the 'Empire'?

The US could abviously defeat the forces of the British Empire, but it's armed forces are just too small now to invade more than Canada and various Carribean and similar small islands. The US army was stretched by Iraq and Afganistan, conquering countries takes a lot of manpower, where's it coming from?

[RamscoopRaider]

Originally Posted by dropbearabroad

Any US base is a goner. Any reinforcements that can be flown in will be light, they can't hope to withstand a concerted attack by an opponent with armour and artillery. Within a few hours there would be no air support, artillery bombardments can easily close down an airfield, so whatever defences you have for the bases just get surrounded and pummelled into submission.

Evacuating bases takes time and you can say goodbye to any hope of surprise. What does Canada do in the meantime, let alone the other countries of the 'Empire'?

The US could abviously defeat the forces of the British Empire, but it's armed forces are just too small now to invade more than Canada and various Carribean and similar small islands. The US army was stretched by Iraq and Afganistan, conquering countries takes a lot of manpower, where's it coming from?

Again this isn't ASB, wars do not appear in a vacuum

Any war between the US and Britain would have months and years of building tensions to evacuate, fortify and reinforce

Manpower, probably a buildup pre war then a draft after the war starts, the US has 300million people, mobilizing 10 million soldiers is not impossible

[LordIreland]

Originally Posted by RamscoopRaider

Manpower, probably a buildup pre war then a draft after the war starts, the US has 300million people, mobilizing 10 million soldiers is not impossible

But it is incredibly expensive and would require the national will to do so, something that I suspect would be sadly lacking.

[RamscoopRaider]

Originally Posted by LordIreland

But it is incredibly expensive and would require the national will to do so, something that I suspect would be sadly lacking.

True, but in a situation were War Plan Red is implemented it would have to exist or else the War Plan would not be implemented

[dropbearabroad]

True, but that wasn't in the original post. But if this expanded preparation time is available for the US, I presume it will also be used by Canada, the UK, Australia etc for their militray preparations? In which case comparisons of existing force levels becomes pointless because the forces involved would look nothing like the current militaries. Do we hazard a guess as to how big the combined armies of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh will be in this scenario?

In this possible mass expansion of militaries will they be equipped to the same lavish standards as our current high tech western militaries? If so, all countries are bankrupt because none can afford to equip greatly larger forces to the same extravagent standard we do for the smaller high tech forces currently favoured by western countries. So that can't realistically happen.

If we go for much larger armies as everyone gears up for a large scale war then we are looking more like 1980s force structures, and that means mass casualties on both sides.

As for the survivability of bases in a long lead in conflict, it's a redundant question. The bases would have been closed years before when relations had deteriorated as everyone started gearing up for a major conflict.

So debating the question as to what would happen depends on whether we are talking about the force structures in place now, or some hypothetical world where both sides expect war and have prepared accordingly?

[Deckhand]

Canada has the resources and expertise and infrastructure to crash produce several nukes within 6 months. In an extended period of hostile buildup, North America has some cites go boom. All of Canada's, and some the big Yankee ones. Given who would be driving this wacky scenario, i suspect Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, and we can only hope Nashville, as we know you best of anyone.


That is if anyone but the conservatives are in charge. If they are Harper will bend over and grab his ankles and say " pretty please uncle sammy, can i have another?"

The whole thing is ASB though.

[GarethC]

The biggest question is - do we have to include Egypt, Israel, India and Pakistan? Because those are problems (closing Suez and, well, nukes, really). South Africa (for the ability to deploy mines around the Cape) and Iran don't help.

It would be a very brave President who would start a war with the UK without seeking to neutralize its deterrent. And you can't go after somebody else's nukes half-heartedly - there's too much of a chance of a "use it or lose it" reaction.

Opening 5 minutes of the Anglo-American war will be a US sneak attack that will make the infamy of Pearl Harbor look like a drop in the ocean. Nuclear-tipped torpedoes launched against the patrolling SSBN(s) (and the war can't start until they are found) will be followed by radio buoy deployment by the attacking SSNs to trigger SLBM strikes against Faslane/Rosyth, Aldermaston, and Porton Down, and possibly some other sites (not sure about Portsmouth, Devonport, Barrow, Sellafield, that place off the M4).

Conventional A- or SLCM strikes against St Mawgan, Fylingdales, Vagar, Saxa Vord... I'm not sure what air bases haven't been closed - I think they've shut Leuchars & Kinloss - maybe Stornoway and St. Athan? Not until those go in will a CVBG contest the airspace over the UK.

[Joyeux]

If there's build up beforehand, then it's a rather bloody war with plenty of insta-sun. If not, Canada gets steamrolled.

Are we including the rest of the "Empire" too? If so, Canada gets conquered, the Caribbean is easily taken and Guyana too.
Then the war stalemates as nobody can do anything else.

[modelcitizen]

Originally Posted by GarethC

...

It would be a very brave President who would start a war with the UK without seeking to neutralize its deterrent. And you can't go after somebody else's nukes half-heartedly - there's too much of a chance of a "use it or lose it" reaction.

Opening 5 minutes of the Anglo-American war will be a US sneak attack that will make the infamy of Pearl Harbor look like a drop in the ocean. Nuclear-tipped torpedoes launched against the patrolling SSBN(s) (and the war can't start until they are found) will be followed by radio buoy deployment by the attacking SSNs to trigger SLBM strikes against Faslane/Rosyth, Aldermaston, and Porton Down, and possibly some other sites (not sure about Portsmouth, Devonport, Barrow, Sellafield, that place off the M4).
......

That seems to dovetail with the original War Plan Red's proviso to hit Halifax with poison gas (!!!!!!!!!!!)

[modelcitizen]

Originally Posted by Joyeux

If there's build up beforehand, then it's a rather bloody war with plenty of insta-sun. If not, Canada gets steamrolled.

Are we including the rest of the "Empire" too? If so, Canada gets conquered, the Caribbean is easily taken and Guyana too.
Then the war stalemates as nobody can do anything else.

According to the linked wikipedia article, stalemate was pretty much the British plan for dealing with war with the United States, that is, bog it down and hope for American voters to stop the war from continuing. (And this was at least forty years before we got heavily into the Vietnam War, but yeah.)


Edit: Have I mentioned my personal reaction that War Plan Red was pure evil?!!!??!

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by RamscoopRaider

This isn't ASB, if war plan red is implemented those bases would have been evacuated beforehand or had their defenses strengthened

Agreed.

My guess if some Colonel is righting the 2012 War Plan Red, it involves leaving Nato and pulling out of Europe in the weeks/months leading up to the war. It would be interesting what the Colonel assumes Japan would do. Any ideas? I suspect we would invade Venzueala to secure oil and retake the Panama Canal as a part of the plan since we are obviously going back to our more imperial roots. Probably assumes UK is hostile and takes Bermuda, Caymans and the like. Probably take Ascension Island. Indian Ocean part of plan would be interesting.

And there would be a second War Plan Red which assumes no lead time. Maybe the Canadian forces attack the USA without warning. Also be an interesting read.

[BlondieBC]

Originally Posted by modelcitizen

According to the linked wikipedia article, stalemate was pretty much the British plan for dealing with war with the United States, that is, bog it down and hope for American voters to stop the war from continuing. (And this was at least forty years before we got heavily into the Vietnam War, but yeah.)


Edit: Have I mentioned my personal reaction that War Plan Red was pure evil?!!!??!

Well, it was actually simpler than that. The UK was big into appeasement, so the UK would try to hold Halifax with reinforcements and the RN. Then basically concede the rest to the USA. The USA wanted to try to take Halifax fast, so this will be the only important battle of the war.

And likely if one had a rising period of tensions in the 1920's or 1930's, the UK does a Munich. The Dominion of Canada had an aggressive preemptive strike plan and the UK had an appeasement plan. There was no unified war plan.

[Daylight Savings]

Again this board devolves into 'modern nations couldn't fight without nuking each other'. I'm pretty sure if you polled Canadians asking whether they'd prefer to be occupied by the US Army or let the war go nuclear you'd get over 99% for the former. War Plan Red isn't the Eastern Front of WWII. No one's talking about extermination or forced labor camps. The biggest change in the lives of Americans, Canadians, Britons, Australians and New Zealanders if any of them were occupied by the others would be changes to the tax rate, healthcare and debates on gay marriage. No one would rather kill 2 million people with the push of a button and ensure your own death than do that.