The Prince of Peace

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by DrakeRlugia

I bring you not an update, but a question:

I was looking over my maps regarding the Ottoman Empire following Murad's death and then around 1605, when our Giray has united everything back. Now, we know the Italians took advantage of this situation, especially the Venetians with their Greek adventures, and even the Genoese got back Chios.

My mind came to Bosnia. It's under the control of a local warlord; he's loyal to Giray and thus dissenting against the Khan of the Crimea's enemy, but he's the one in charge. He's possibly minting currency; he dispenses justice, has his own army, and is essentially an independent Bey. He's vulnerable to an outside force.

Hungary has her own issues. It has recently been acquired by the Habsburgs, but the Austrian line dies out. In Hungary a woman succeeds. She marries the Duke of Orléans and while she cannot claim Austria nor Bohemia, she is crowned Queen in Hungary. And her claim is recognized by 1588 with the Treaties finally ending the religious wars in France.

Now, the big question: in this chaos, and so recently after fighting for her throne, can she invade Bosnia? The Girays are certainly crowned by 1590, yet they still have to deal with the Safavids in Iraq and the resurgent Mamluks who threaten to spill over into Anatolia proper. So it does give Hungary some time before they actually would occupy said province.

Now, the question: can they? For thing, Hungary doesn't exactly have a strong population base. She was independent under Zapolya, with them paying an annual tribute. Yet this didn't stop constant wars between the Habsburgs and Ottomans to take place over Hungary, with respective armies living off the land as Renaissance armies do. Hungary is just as depopulated, if not more, than she was at this very same time period. This means they certainly don't have a strong army; it certainly suffered loses in it's fight trying to take Bohemia and Hungary. No doubt it could secure Bosnia, but, another question is, would they even want too? Would Hungary have any interest in Bosnia? I could see an expedition to defeat the warlord's army to neutralize them, but would they want to occupy it and fact the fact that Giray might turn west to regain his lost Eyalets when he finally has cleaned house?

I think minor border adjustments are always possible in favour of Hungary.

[DrakeRlugia]

Originally Posted by Archangel

I think minor border adjustments are always possible in favour of Hungary.

What kind of border adjustments do you find feasible? I agree with Saya that the whole of Bosnia is out of the question, just not sure how the border might be adjusted. It seems like the border between Croatia-Slavonia and Bosnia is pretty natural already.

[DrakeRlugia]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

Silesia was heavily Polish before the counter reformation and the 30 years war so it will remain in this TL because they will never be targets of Counter Reformation..


I created a map of Silesia that remains largely Polish speaking in an ATL.

The Polish population in Silesia in OTL
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...i_XVIII-XX.PNG

Thanks for the maps... I don't speak Polish though; what do the two colors represent on the original OTL map? I agree they'll continue to speak Polish. There has yet to actually be any Counter Reformation; it will probably come into shape by the late 1580s/1590s, but it won't be anything like the OTL one. And most certainly will not be accepted in a Poland ruled by the Jagiellons.

[Saya Aensland]

Originally Posted by DrakeRlugia

What kind of border adjustments do you find feasible? I agree with Saya that the whole of Bosnia is out of the question, just not sure how the border might be adjusted. It seems like the border between Croatia-Slavonia and Bosnia is pretty natural already.

Yeah, the border of Bosnia and Croatia-Slavonia is pretty much all river, except for a little slice north of River Una.

[DrakeRlugia]

Originally Posted by Saya Aensland

Yeah, the border of Bosnia and Croatia-Slavonia is pretty much all river, except for a little slice north of River Una.

Now that piece of territory would at least stabilize most of Hungary's frontier along the Una and the Danube vis a vis the Ottomans. Also something I could see as occupiable because at the very least Mary will send an expedition to crush the Bosnian Eyalet's forces, especially if they are conducting raids into HUngary.

[zraith]

Originally Posted by DrakeRlugia

Thanks for the maps... I don't speak Polish though; what do the two colors represent on the original OTL map?

The darker orange color is "Extent in the middle of the 20th century." The lighter orange is "Disappearance (vanish/extinct) in the 18th and 19th century."

[DrakeRlugia]

Originally Posted by zraith

The darker orange color is "Extent in the middle of the 20th century." The lighter orange is "Disappearance (vanish/extinct) in the 18th and 19th century."

Thanks Zraith; so Silesia's Germanization was still in a very crystallized state, especially in the 16th century. Just as I figured. Not really that much of s "core" ofte empire after all. I suspect the nobility were probably German speaking, especially given the Piast stem duchies and their connections to the empire, but otherwise the common people were still mostly speaking Polish. Not to say German wasn't spoken, but it looks really limited.

[DrakeRlugia]

The Succession of Henri II & The Tumult of Orléans
1576 to 1579; France

In 1576, François III, King of France, died of a lung infection. Having succeeded his father as an adult, he had quickly moved to break the influence of his mother, Mary Tudor over the politics of the nation. The Guises saw themselves purged from his council and in 1569 the Estates General gathered at Frémécourt where the Edict of Rambouillet was worked out and proclaimed in 1570. Yet fresh riots spurred on by the Royal and Catholic League (no doubt supported by the Queen Dowager Mary Tudor) and the rejection of the edict by the Parlement of Paris saw the breakdown of any attempts of toleration and reconciliation. François III’s death was seen as a grave loss for the Huguenots as he had shown himself open to negotiation. In other circles it was seen as a bad omen: Henri II was the third king to succeed to the throne in under a decade.

Despite being fifteen and well within his majority according to French law, Henri II had largely been reared by his grandmother at her Château at Chaumont with all of his other siblings. As such, upon his ascension he allowed his grandmother to lead him, knowing little about politics. When the news of his father’s death became public, Mary Tudor made all haste to carry the new young king to Paris. Installed within the Louvre, the new king lived with his grandmother and was soon joined by his siblings. The young king’s chambers were connected to his grandmothers via secret passages and all laws promulgated by Henri II began with the preamble: It is with the good advice of the Queen Dowager, my grandmother…

It soon became very clear that although traditional French law dictated that Henri had attained his majority and could reign alone, he was coerced into accepting the advice of his grandmother. Within days of their arrival in Paris, Mary Tudor had the entirety of François III’s government sacked, dismissing notable Protestants such as the Admiral de Coligny, the Duke of Rohan and even the Duke of Bourbon and the Prince of Condé as well as moderate Catholics who opposed her connections with the House of Guise. Ultra-Catholics were given important state posts; while in an unprecedented step Mary Tudor appointed herself to the Conseil du Roi, placing herself at the center of the kings supposed policy to pursue her goals and see the nefarious Huguenots hunted into extinction.

The many problems that existed at the beginning of Henri’s reign were merely those carried over from the end of the reign of his fathers. François III’s failure to push his edict through Parlement had once more brought the Huguenot forces back into the field in full force as early as 1573 and by 1576 they were already clashing with the royal army, having fortified several towns and forts not only in Normandie, but throughout their holdouts in south, mostly places de sûreté that had been promised in the original edict yet never carried out. From there the Huguenots continued to prepare themselves throughout the south and expressed a marked hostility towards the royal government in Paris, which extended to their officials. Combined with the ad-hoc efforts of the Royal League to crush the Huguenot rabble, by the time Henri II’s coronation had been carried carried out at Reims in the summer of 1576, the power of the royal government had all but ceased to exist in many provinces, a trend that threatened to continue unless something drastic was done, and fast.

Henri’s ascension to the throne came at a very confusing time for the people of France. Years of warfare between both the Huguenot and Catholic parties had caused great misery for the common people; food was quite often in short supply, and whole agricultural communities were displaced through warfare. The influx of gold and silver from the Americas also adversely affected the economy, where the average wage was unable to keep up with the rising cost of goods, especially those manufactured. Even some of the greatest families of France found themselves in dire straits by these changes, selling whatever heirlooms they could in hope to avoid the ruin of their families.

The inability of the court in Paris to come to a conclusion regarding the Huguenots also meant that the French Protestants continued to flout royal authority by congregating and holding sermons. The political and military structure that had so impressively been created in the early 1560s by the Duke of Bourbon and the Prince of Condé in regards to Huguenots had not vanished in the reign of François III, but merely pushed underground. Thus once Paris turned against them for the third time, the Huguenot militias were called into active duty once more and often with the support of local notables stormed castles and jails. Severe iconoclastic riots broke out in several cities in the south and were soon in open insurrection against the royal government. Compared to the reign of François II where he had possessed the strength to fight back against the Huguenots despite foreign backers in the form of England and Ireland, Henri’s government was nearly powerless to act. Thus when knowledge of the Tripartite alliance between England, Scotland, and Navarre became public knowledge, there were great worries in moderate circles that Mary Tudor’s policies would provoke a general war that would bring foreign support into bolster the Huguenots against the royal government.

Henri’s France was not that of his grandfathers. The army and navy were in dire straits, the treasury was empty, and he stood in the middle of two sides that absolutely refused any sort of reconciliation. He remained tight under the thumb of his grandmother, who in the autumn of 1579 moved the king from the Louvre to the Château de Blois. It is still unknown why the dowager chose to move the king at such a tumultuous time, with the Huguenots holding ground in the south of the country, but many speculate it was the growing strength and outrage of the Royal League who Mary had feared might usurp her position as the king’s guardian, a ubiquous title that implied the share of influence the dowager had in his government.

The movement to Blois was not just for protective purposes. It was also here that Mary intended to permanently bind Henri to her through marriage to a wife of her choosing. While his father had accepted her marital suggestions without arguments, the young king had already begun to argue with his grandmother. Several courts had offered potential matches to the king, a young man who at eighteen stood at 5’11’’ and was dashingly handsome, having inherited a distinctive Tudor face along with the Valois nose. The row developed over the choice of a bride: the king himself favored the very attractive Maria Luisa of Savoy. Yet the queen dowager herself refused to continence such a match, finding it beneath her grandson’s rank, instead preferring a match with one of his cousins—either the Princess Mary of Hungary, or Maria d’Este. Both whom were her granddaughters and Henri’s first cousin.

It was by now that Henri II had tired of his grandmother’s overbearing presence. While she was planning the finer points of choosing the perfect wife for Henri, the young king opened up his own secret negotiations with the court of Savoy for Maria Luisa’s hand. He also began to court moderate Catholics, drawing up a new council that would be established upon his ouster of his grandmother—including men such as the Count of Saumur as Chancellor and the Duke of Nemours as well. Underneath his grandmother’s nose Henri slowly had the royal guards at Blois swapped with troops loyal to him and would support him in any potential conflict. Yet few had any idea such a conflict would mean clashing with the dowager herself.

Henri bided his time throughout December. It was finally on the 25th of December, Christmas Day, that Henri carried out his plans. The dowager was confined to her rooms and not allowed to leave. The so-called Tumult of Orléans was less a tumult than more of a grown man finally asserting himself. Instead of opening the day with festivities, Henri II chose to open the morning with a lit de justice. The day had been so strategically chosen because of the holidays that so many couriers would be present. Henri’s lit de justice was simple. Dressed in his finest silk along with an ermine robe bedecked in fleur-de-lyes.

“I invite you all here today for one simple reason. I have called called this Lit de Justice not to force Parlement to accept proposals, but rather to dispense that justice which is necessary. I am eighteen, yet have practically no right to reign on my own. According to the laws of this land, I have attained my majority. I can rule. And I shall rule. All I do here today is declaring my majority; that I shall assemble my council and I shall reign, with no one’s else’s help.”

Henri’s coup was without any bloodshed, and after following his Lit de Justice Mary Tudor found herself exiled from the world of politics forever, Henri now had many difficult tasks behind him: he needed to curb both the Ultra-Catholics and Huguenots; restore to the kingdom some financial stability and lines and credit, and reassemble the civil government so that once more his reign would not be confined due to rebels and traitors. It was a very long road, but Henri II was confident in his abilities.

[zraith]

Originally Posted by DrakeRlugia

In other circles it was seen as a bad omen: Henri II was the third king to succeed to the throne in under three years.

Three years? François II died in 1569, succeeded by François III who died in 1576 who was succeeded by Henri II. Unless this is about royal succession on an international level?

Henri II showing that he's a schemer and has talent in intrigue, worrying news to those that would prefer France engrossed with internal problems and inept leadership, unless is grandmother was egotistical and inept to not notice what is happening under her nose.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Also your title has one too many I's for Henri if you know what I mean...

[DrakeRlugia]

Originally Posted by zraith

Three years? François II died in 1569, succeeded by François III who died in 1576 who was succeeded by Henri II. Unless this is about royal succession on an international level?

Henri II showing that he's a schemer and has talent in intrigue, worrying news to those that would prefer France engrossed with internal problems and inept leadership, unless is grandmother was egotistical and inept to not notice what is happening under her nose.

Typo on my part, my apologies. Fixed. He is the third king to succeed in under a decade. François II died in 1569; François III reigned from 1569 to 1576 and now we have Henri II. Some would see it as a bad sign to go through so many king's in such a short time.

He's definitely inherited a share of the dramatics from his great grandfather, Henry VIII. I'd say the scheming from his grandmother herself; some of the earlier Valois, such as great-grandfather were very canny too. He's the type of King of France needed. Mary Tudor herself, is getting older, and partly felt herself in a golden cage. She had no issues controlling her children yet found it was grandchildren who flouted her authority. Needless to say, her days in power are up.

Henri, however, is stll going to have to deal with the League and the Huguenots. Which brings up the issue that'll soon be opening a whole new can of worms, especially with England, Scotland, and Navarre's alliance. The Emperor may be tied up in trying to gain Austria at this moment, but it doesn't mean he's lacking men to fight the French.

Originally Posted by Razgriz 2K9

Also your title has one too many I's for Henri if you know what I mean...

Thanks! Too much reading on Valois, not paying enough attention to my own regnal numbering....

[RGB]

That was smoothly done, Mary let down her guard and didn't see it coming. Promising!

[Archangel]

Originally Posted by DrakeRlugia

What kind of border adjustments do you find feasible? I agree with Saya that the whole of Bosnia is out of the question, just not sure how the border might be adjusted. It seems like the border between Croatia-Slavonia and Bosnia is pretty natural already.

Originally Posted by Saya Aensland

Yeah, the border of Bosnia and Croatia-Slavonia is pretty much all river, except for a little slice north of River Una.

I was thinking in the Bihac area, but Saya Aensland detailed it better.

Keep up the good work, DrakeRlugia!

[Yorel]

Interesting update. I can't wait to see wether or not Henri II will succeed in what his father failed.

[Sian]

Been reading the AH with interest ... although i would really like a flash o what happens in the grim north (Denmark, Norway and Sweden), and prehaps also a look at the Babary Pirates in Tunisia, or are they all but nonexistent due to the larger spain and Naples stamping them out?

[DrakeRlugia]

Originally Posted by Sian

Been reading the AH with interest ... although i would really like a flash o what happens in the grim north (Denmark, Norway and Sweden), and prehaps also a look at the Babary Pirates in Tunisia, or are they all but nonexistent due to the larger spain and Naples stamping them out?

I'll definitely get around to covering Scandinavia soon. So far, not much has changed there. Kalmar Union still destroyed, Vasas took the Swedish throne though they have some little differences, mostly in terms of marriages.

The Barbary States still exist. Ottomans never conquered Tunisia or Algeria, but Spain didn't either. Typical Renaissance tactics to stamp out Piracy was typically occupying ports, not going in land. So the various pre-Ottoman statelets exist, at least for now. A tribe coming out of the desert in the 1590s unites the Maghreb, called the Zaranids. They're possibly Berbers or Tuaregs.

[Sian]

so ... Northern Seven years war between Denmark-norway, Lubeck, Polish-Lithuanian union vs Sweden, between 1563-1570 is butterflied out of existence?

Poles are busy otherplace, but it was predominantly a war between Denmark-norway and Sweden with invited parties, the swedish CB being the young new king (Eric XIV) wanting to usurp the dominance of the Baltics, which was held by Denmark (helped quite a bit by the Sound dues), while the danish CB was the equally young king (Frederik II) wanted to resurrect Kalmar Union, while Lubeck and Poland joined the danish side because the swedish expansion towards russia threatened their trading routes, and the status quo in the baltics

[DrakeRlugia]

Originally Posted by Sian

so ... Northern Seven years war between Denmark-norway, Lubeck, Polish-Lithuanian union vs Sweden, between 1563-1570 is butterflied out of existence?

Poles are busy otherplace, but it was predominantly a war between Denmark-norway and Sweden with invited parties, the swedish CB being the young new king (Eric XIV) wanting to usurp the dominance of the Baltics, which was held by Denmark (helped quite a bit by the Sound dues), while the danish CB was the equally young king (Frederik II) wanted to resurrect Kalmar Union, while Lubeck and Poland joined the danish side because the swedish expansion towards russia threatened their trading routes, and the status quo in the baltics

No, the Livonian Order still dissolves and a Northern War breaks out. I can't tell you the page your chapter is though, but it's called "The Troubles of Sigismund & The Peace of Sluck.

[Razgriz 2K9]

If it makes it easier, I got the link to said chapter: http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...&postcount=172

[kasumigenx]

I think the Jagellonians should marry with the Silesian Piasts and the Masovian Piasts so that they could legitemize their rule on Poland more.