WI:Bryzantium Survival Till'the age of revolutions

[TheTimeRanger]

Lets just say that the Bryzantines repelled the Ottoman Invasion,regained its european lands,made a uneasy peace with the turks,finally...surviving till.....the age of revolutions.What's your opinion on the impact on the world? my opinion,the world will be-semi-greatly affected.(Like example:Possible early-World-war one class-war involvong the bryzantines on early 1800's.) What's your opinion,my fellow althistorians?

[SavoyTruffle]

Best POD is way before the Ottomans come onto the scene. Around the Komnenid era or before the Fourth Crusade.

[cimon]

I think the first point of divergence should be with emperor Erakleios who should manage to persuade the Persians to avoid war with Byzantium and drw their attention toArabia and certain events there and persuade them to campaign jointly against Arabia.With lack of attrition between those two powers and the destruction of the Muslim movement and with an untouched Persia(and Byzantium of course ) by a long war of attrition, the the Seljuks would have had no chance of advancing either through them or Byzantium if they decide on a second cooperation.

[eliphas8]

Honestly I doubt Rome would be one for French revolution stuff (although I could definately see Caesarism like with Napoleon).

[Andreas]

well, I suspect that my ideas will draw some people's darts, but I put it on the table:

1. I can see a larger Renaissance, as IOTL it seems to have started in Byzantium
2. With Byzantium more successful in surviving, I can also see a stronger Humanism
3. Due to the above, I can see an earlier Scientific Revolution
4. Same, I can see an earlier Enlightenment
5. I also can see a thousand butterflies concerning Reformation
6. If some of the above happen, at least to some extend, I can see an earlier Industrial Revolution, which extends southwards and eastwards.

And, if Byzantium choses to become more conservative from the 14th c. onwards, I can see an equivalent to the French Revolution in Constantinople or Thessalonica, only without the element of capitalism.

[wolf_brother]

Do you hear that?

It's the sound of millions of butterflies dying.

[Tobit]

Originally Posted by wolf_brother

Do you hear that?

It's the sound of millions of butterflies dying.

What revolution? We all serve the Holy Hapsburg Empire.

[Consul Arrianus]

Originally Posted by Andreas

well, I suspect that my ideas will draw some people's darts, but I put it on the table:

1. I can see a larger Renaissance, as IOTL it seems to have started in Byzantium
2. With Byzantium more successful in surviving, I can also see a stronger Humanism
3. Due to the above, I can see an earlier Scientific Revolution
4. Same, I can see an earlier Enlightenment
5. I also can see a thousand butterflies concerning Reformation
6. If some of the above happen, at least to some extend, I can see an earlier Industrial Revolution, which extends southwards and eastwards.

And, if Byzantium choses to become more conservative from the 14th c. onwards, I can see an equivalent to the French Revolution in Constantinople or Thessalonica, only without the element of capitalism.

1.If Constantinople isn't sacked in 1204 then all the cultural stuff wouldn't been noticed in western Europe so the Renaisssance (if it still happens...) will beginn many years later.
2.If Byzantium survives till the Age of Revolution then it is very likely that it will survive till the cold war and if that happens i'm very interessed witch side they will choose (i bet on betwixt and between).
3.I'm wondering how a surving Byzantine Empire will look today.
4. If Byzantium gets republican during the ages of revolution Italy will been divided between France and Byzantium or if they stay a monarchy Italy will get the biggest battleground of the century.

[SavoyTruffle]

Originally Posted by Consul Arrianus

1.If Constantinople isn't sacked in 1204 then all the cultural stuff wouldn't been noticed in western Europe so the Renaisssance (if it still happens...) will beginn many years later.
2.If Byzantium survives till the Age of Revolution then it is very likely that it will survive till the cold war and if that happens i'm very interessed witch side they will choose (i bet on betwixt and between).
3.I'm wondering how a surving Byzantine Empire will look today.
4. If Byzantium gets republican during the ages of revolution Italy will been divided between France and Byzantium or if they stay a monarchy Italy will get the biggest battleground of the century.

Aaa butterfly genocide!

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by SavoyTruffle

Aaa butterfly genocide!

I suppose its possible that you could have something like the "Age of Revolutions" of OTL, but to try to put on any sort of schedule, or any of the other features of anything past oh, 1500 (up to 1500 things may not be dramatically different enough - sure, England won't be quite the same and France won't, but not necessarily the whole continent as a whole) is . . .

yeah. Think of the butterflies, people predicting events!

The Renaissance is not going to look like OTL's, but I don't think we can say for sure if it would be stronger or weaker just with a "Byzantium survives longer" POD.

Italy is profoundly different between my timeline and Basileus444's, for instance.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Consul Arrianus

1.If Constantinople isn't sacked in 1204 then all the cultural stuff wouldn't been noticed in western Europe so the Renaisssance (if it still happens...) will beginn many years later.
2.If Byzantium survives till the Age of Revolution then it is very likely that it will survive till the cold war and if that happens i'm very interessed witch side they will choose (i bet on betwixt and between).
3.I'm wondering how a surving Byzantine Empire will look today.
4. If Byzantium gets republican during the ages of revolution Italy will been divided between France and Byzantium or if they stay a monarchy Italy will get the biggest battleground of the century.

1. Actually the turning point for the birth of the Italian Renaissance was the Counsil of Florence-Ferrara, as the Byzantines sold or gifted hundrends of books in order to pay for their stay in Italy. Anyway, if 1204 and Florence-Ferrara are butterflied away, the Italian Renaisance may occur later, but it would be much more stable and productive.

2. I'm not sure there would be a Cold War, at least in the shape we know it.

3. We'd need hundrends of pages to explore half the possibilities

4. Italy is the least that should concern us in that case. The whole world could be affected on terms of ideology.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Consul Arrianus

1.If Constantinople isn't sacked in 1204 then all the cultural stuff wouldn't been noticed in western Europe so the Renaisssance (if it still happens...) will beginn many years later.
2.If Byzantium survives till the Age of Revolution then it is very likely that it will survive till the cold war and if that happens i'm very interessed witch side they will choose (i bet on betwixt and between).
3.I'm wondering how a surving Byzantine Empire will look today.
4. If Byzantium gets republican during the ages of revolution Italy will been divided between France and Byzantium or if they stay a monarchy Italy will get the biggest battleground of the century.

The Renaissance started much later,of course in Italy but not because Constantinople was sacked;many known people of letters went to Italy
because their home aereas were occypied and anyway they didn't see their future any longer in their home.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Andreas

1. Actually the turning point for the birth of the Italian Renaissance was the Counsil of Florence-Ferrara, as the Byzantines sold or gifted hundrends of books in order to pay for their stay in Italy. Anyway, if 1204 and Florence-Ferrara are butterflied away, the Italian Renaisance may occur later, but it would be much more stable and productive.

2. I'm not sure there would be a Cold War, at least in the shape we know it.

3. We'd need hundrends of pages to explore half the possibilities

4. Italy is the least that should concern us in that case. The whole world could be affected on terms of ideology.

Naturally Andreas,when you introduce a major European power into the balance of power,many parametres will be altered and will create a new
state of affairs.I agree that we cannot foretell events 500 years ahead or even 100 as things stood at that time.
Renaissance would be probably the result of intercourse between Byzantium and third parties(states).

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Consul Arrianus

1.If Constantinople isn't sacked in 1204 then all the cultural stuff wouldn't been noticed in western Europe so the Renaisssance (if it still happens...) will beginn many years later.
2.If Byzantium survives till the Age of Revolution then it is very likely that it will survive till the cold war and if that happens i'm very interessed witch side they will choose (i bet on betwixt and between).
3.I'm wondering how a surving Byzantine Empire will look today.
4. If Byzantium gets republican during the ages of revolution Italy will been divided between France and Byzantium or if they stay a monarchy Italy will get the biggest battleground of the century.

The Industrial Revolution will occur from southwards to north westwards since Byzantium is more advanced than the western countries;it will also be more methodical and with a faster pace.

[Herzen's love-child]

I don't see a later Italian Renaissance at all---unless a continuing or resurgent Byzantium inadvertantly snuffed it out by preventing the continued development of the Italian City-states. The contributions of Byzantine refugees are but one of many elements of the Renaissance --which shouldn't be treated as a discrete period so much as a continuum of the late middle ages married to less (relatively) centralized government (in the Italian City-States) more responsive to a larger class of citizens and the beginnings of Capitalism---all of which was fertile ground for new ideas. There were many antecedents to the cultural renaissance dating back well before it "officially" started. Witness the rise of vernacular languages (Petrarch, Dante), the humanistic & classical interests of Sicilian court of Frederick II Hohenstaufen, etc.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Herzen's love-child

I don't see a later Italian Renaissance at all---unless a continuing or resurgent Byzantium inadvertantly snuffed it out by preventing the continued development of the Italian City-states. The contributions of Byzantine refugees are but one of many elements of the Renaissance --which shouldn't be treated as a discrete period so much as a continuum of the late middle ages married to less (relatively) centralized government (in the Italian City-States) more responsive to a larger class of citizens and the beginnings of Capitalism---all of which was fertile ground for new ideas. There were many antecedents to the cultural renaissance dating back well before it "officially" started. Witness the rise of vernacular languages (Petrarch, Dante), the humanistic & classical interests of Sicilian court of Frederick II Hohenstaufen, etc.

That's why I used the word "may". The Byzantine-Italian intercourse during the Florence-Ferrara Counsil was an accelerating factor, but not the birth of Italian Renaissance. In fact the philosophical dialogue between the Byzantines and the Italians had started a lot earlier (at least mid-14th c.).
The beggining of the Renaisance should be recognized in the process of the prevailance of the Aristotelian Logic in the Catholic Theological thought through Acinate's works and, as you correctly note, in the evolution of the Italian city-states and the Italian political thought and practice, with the consequent developments in science and philosophy.
Hence, the Italian and the Palaiologan Renaisances were two parallel phenomena, although we should note that the development of the former depended at some extend to the flow of the original Classic works from Byzantium to Italy.

[Andreas]

cimon,

I doubt that the Industrial Revolution could "move" from the South Northwards: the Industrial Revolution had a lot to do with the prevailance of Capitalism (as noted), and I can't see how the Byzantines could "create" such an ideology. Something equivalent maybe, but not Capitalism. And, if there's no capitalism, how can we be sure that there could be a phenomenon equal (in terms of structure, extend and consequences) to the Industrial Revolution. On the other hand, I can see the Byzantines developing somethig similar (but far less massive), and at least be in a position to follow the Industrial Revolution of the North from the begginings of it.

Also, note (that goes to all) that in the 14th and 15th c. there were two Renaisances: the Italian and the Palaiologan, but the later was halted violently in the mid-15th c. less due to the religious radicalism of the empire itself, and more due to the Ottoman conquest.

[Consul Arrianus]

I there such a region in the Byzantine Empire or in it's sphere of influence where iron and coal are near together?

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Consul Arrianus

I there such a region in the Byzantine Empire or in it's sphere of influence where iron and coal are near together?

if we count only the byzantine areas in 13th c., that's Macedonia... But there could be a different development of industry than the one in Northern Europe. For example Greece has a lot of aluminium and copper.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Andreas

if we count only the byzantine areas in 13th c., that's Macedonia... But there could be a different development of industry than the one in Northern Europe. For example Greece has a lot of aluminium and copper.

Boxite and Lignite which substituted for coal successfully,but what Byzantium are you talking about Andreas? I don't talk about Paleologian period but Macedonian dynasty 9th-11th centuries when Tsimiskes abolished the smoke tax on Furnaces that proves the presence of capital
and the resurgence of the Byzantine navy with the flourishing of naval transport and the booming of commercial activities.
They would have to at least repel the insertion of Turkish elements into Anatolia and also expand south.