War aims of a "Nazi" France?

[Arcvalons]

Restoration of Charlemagne's empire, with North italy and all West germany integrated, also claims on England.

[Clandango]

It was not really an Austrian colony and they showed no interest in keeping it. As for France in Cisjordan and Transjordan, keep in mind that it was the BRITISH who gave them Greater Syria after WWI, as well as Togo, Most of Kamerun, and generally helped the French out

[mowque]

I think all of Spain is a bit much.

[Kome]

Originally Posted by RPW@Cy

This. Everybody's had a lot of fun, but does anybody *really* see a post WW1 POD that results in France dismantling Germany?

Not really. But im having a lot of fun in this thread.

I posted my attempt at a POD a few pages back. A fictional far fight movement in France combined with greater dissatisfaction among the French people and an extreme sense of Germophobia after WW1 catalyzes during the Remilitarization of the Rhineland. 'Le Chef' rallies his supports to rise up against the Third Republic which finds itself unwilling to act against Hitler without British support. The military rises up as well and sides with 'Le Chef' and stages a coup d'etat against the Third Republic while also commencing unilateral military action against Germany.

Hitler made contingencies if the French were to do so OTL, but really nothing could save the Hitler government after France marches all the way to the Rhine and puts the entirety of the Rhineland under occupation. Hitler's government collapses, and Germany's rearmament ends due to French threats.

France's 'General Sulla' heading the military government allows for new elections and and end of military rule. 'Le Chef' has won the spotlight and is seen as responsible for the military's movement into the Rhineland and easily wins the elections.

Original post my idea was to have 'Le Chef' be an army Colonel and friend of De Gaulle that liked to 'dabble' in politics, rather than a veteran but civilian. He's placed at the head of the coup due to his immense popularity. After writing this post i think that works a lot better than having him be a complete Hitler analogue (especially considering i kept Hitler in this scenario).

In anycase Germany's balkanization comes early in WW2. They join in with Britain on declaring war after France invades Belgium. Having been crippled by France's Donkey Punch, Germany doesnt put up much resistance and is quickly conquered by France and Poland.

Originally Posted by Xgentis

Not that I think France can't fight but with 1.5 million soldier dead and another 4 million wounded in WWI nobody is in the mood for war.
It's like if today america lost like 12 870 000 soldiers.

Yeah thats kinda problematic. I tried to avert it by having 'Le Chef' prey on the fear of war by saying he'll ensure no nation will ever be able to threaten France again.

[Badshah]

Originally Posted by varyar

By "Nazi" France I mean a state governed by a similar ideology of race-as-biology, agrarian imperialism, military expansionism and the Fuhrer principle. Let's say that somehow a French answer to National Socialism takes control in the 1932 elections and the French Fuhrer, we'll call him Adolphe Blanc, dismantles French democracy more or less at the same pace and scale that Hitler did in OTL.

So, Nazis being Nazis, what does Blanc want when he starts sending the chars across the border? There aren't that many French(-speaking) people beyond the borders of France, not on the scale of the ethnic Germans outside Weimar at any rate, and "Belgium and parts of Switzerland, plus the Rhineland" isn't exactly grand, Hitler-scale megalomania. So what could serve as an analogue to the Nazi "Ein volk, Ein Reich" schemes here? Ancient Celtic domains? Anywhere the French Revolution & Empire laid down the flag?

I don't know if a similar ideology is even possible. A lot of Nazi policy was derived from the activities of the German Empire in their African colonies, whereas France was one of the most tolerant out of those empires, so they wouldn't have any predetermined policies in the colonies being used in Europe itself. In addition, when you have a large colonial empire, being Nazi really won't work. Expect mass rebellion in the colonies, covert support from Britain, and in general, heavy resistance.

[Badshah]

Originally Posted by Clandango

It was not really an Austrian colony and they showed no interest in keeping it. As for France in Cisjordan and Transjordan, keep in mind that it was the BRITISH who gave them Greater Syria after WWI, as well as Togo, Most of Kamerun, and generally helped the French out

Though an interesting dynamic could be the British honouring their deal with the Arab Kingdom of Syria, resulting in France getting pissed off, leading to Franco-British resentment.

[Snake Featherston]

I don't think Nazi France is all that feasible. Germany can very easily cripple France even if it can't sustain the Brest-Litovsk borders in a WWI scenario, to a point where France won't be able to initiate a general European revenge war as a counter. And certainly not able to sustain one if it does do this.

[Kome]

Made posts on Britain and Germany, so next nation is post on Spain.

Some people like partitioning Spain and puppitizing it but that doesnt really seem necessary to the goals of Le Chef. And like the Great Napoleon, a Spanish campaign might just be a bridge too far for him.

Plus the Spanish are natural allies of the French. Catholic, Latin, and if a French back coup succeeds without a Spanish Civil War, Fascist as well.

And since France needs allies, once Britain declares war on France, Spain joins in on the side of France. Any possible territorial gains against Spain are shelved then, as Hitler shelved any ideas about taking Tyrol from Italy.

Opportunistic Spain is interested in getting whatever it can out of this war, so France might have to tide their Latin brothers over with Morocco and Gibraltar.

Gibraltar falls easy due to the efforts of Spain, helped by the French navy and airforce. This gives control of the gates to the Mediterranean over to the French Alliance, not exactly an ideal situation for the British. Any attempt to pass the straits by the British will be met by the Spanish and French fleet supported by coastal artillery and air support. Meanwhile the Spanish and French can move with impunity.

Churchill being... himself, will probably draw up some unrealistic scheme to deal with this. Im imagining a amphibious assault on the Canary Islands, followed up by an amphibious invasion into North Africa with the aim of capturing Ceuta and the North African coast of the straits as a replacement for Gibraltar and allowing air attacks into Spain.

The first North African Campaign probably fails horribly. Underequipped and undermanned, the BEF (or whats left of it after Germany) is met and outnumbered by Spanish and French North African colonial and elite troops, with complete air superiority. The North African campaign will be a decisive victory for the French. I cant really see any possible way for the British to win this.

At sea things are slightly more interesting though. As the British attempt to evacuate their troops and return home, the combined Franco-Spanish fleet sorties against the Royal Navy.

The RN is the RN but they're far from home and reinforcements. Additionally they've been weakened by land based air attacks throughout the campaign and their carrier airwings have suffered attrition trying to support the land forces. Against them stands a combined Franco-Spanish fleet with plenty of land based air support and perhaps one or two CVs of their own. To compound things the British must also defend their troop transports.

Call it heresy, but i think its very possible for the French to win the 'Second Battle of Traflagar' and avenge Napoleon's defeat. The perfect ending to the failed first North African Campaign.

[George Carty]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

I don't think Nazi France is all that feasible. Germany can very easily cripple France even if it can't sustain the Brest-Litovsk borders in a WWI scenario, to a point where France won't be able to initiate a general European revenge war as a counter. And certainly not able to sustain one if it does do this.

Another point is that 20th century France didn't have the rural overpopulation needed to build support for Nazi-style genocidal agrarian expansionism.

Germany's population density in the 1930s was about 130 people per square kilometre. The Generalplan Ost plans set a target population density of 80 people per square kilometre, which was still higher than France's population density at the time.

[The Vulture]

Interesting scenarios here. Who would be junior members of a French-dominated Axis?

[Remicas]

Ok now this thread made me crazy, so I add some pictures to fit the timeline :

"The March On Paris" Adolphe Blanc's coup d'État (1936)



French Air Force preparing to Bomb Nazi Germany, during the beginnig of the French intervention in the Rhineland (1936). Fortunately they didn't had to take off, Hitler retiring his troops before any fight had occured.



French troops during the intervention in the Rhineland (1936)



Uniform of paramilitary organisation under Adolphe Blanc and his party (still nedd a name for it), 1937.


The "Gauls ancestry" in French propaganda (1937)



Anti-jew propaganda (1938)



Anti-british propaganda (Someone should modify this), prior WW2 (1940).



Philippe Pétain and Francisco Franco, after the signature of the Franco-Spanish alliance treaty, also called Latin Pact, and nicknamed by the most humorists the "Franco-Franco Pact" (Madrid, 1937)



Gibraltar, after being taken by Spain. (1942)



The French flag over Berlin, the capital of the Brandenburg Republic, fallen after the French "Guerre Éclair" inspired by de Gaulle's doctrine of massive concentration of tanks, 1942.



Général de Hautecloque, nicnamed "le Renard d'Orient". This photography was taken after the battle of Suez (end-1942), a French victory granting them the control over the canal.



Failed british landing on the Canary Island, 1943.



Jews gathered in the Vel d'Hiv, Paris, before being (officialy) deported to Israel (ex-eastern Prussia) (1944)

The dates seems a bit random, but it's because I assumed le Chef would need some time to impose his ideology and a totalitarian regime in France, before declaring an all-out war to Britain)

[Macragge1]

Originally Posted by Remicas

Uniform of paramilitary organisation under Adolphe Blanc and his party (still nedd a name for it), 1937.

I would have thought calling them the Milice as in OTL would be the easiest option.

[Remicas]

That's what I was thinking too, but it sound too bland, not nazi-like enough.

And about the party, anyone ? Parti National-Socialiste des Travailleurs Français (NSTF) would be the easiest option, but too much nazi-like this time.

[varyar]

Originally Posted by Remicas

That's what I was thinking too, but it sound too bland, not nazi-like enough.

And about the party, anyone ? Parti National-Socialiste des Travailleurs Français (NSTF) would be the easiest option, but too much nazi-like this time.

How about Front de Fer? (du? my French is non-existent, sorry)

[EternalCynic]

What would be the policy of "Nazi France" towards the Catholic Church? Might it do away with the gains made since the Dreyfus affair?

[varyar]

Originally Posted by EternalCynic

What would be the policy of "Nazi France" towards the Catholic Church? Might it do away with the gains made since the Dreyfus affair?

Cooperation, exploitation, apathy and plans for its eventual elimination, if the real Nazis are any guide. Perhaps a strongly Gallicanist streak instead of fostering outright "Latin Christianity" or neo-paganism a la Himmler?

[Remicas]

Originally Posted by varyar

How about Front de Fer? (du? my French is non-existent, sorry)

Front de fer would work better. (Front du fer would mean Iron's Front)
For an instant I thought you said Front National

[lukedalton]

Well in a Nazi-like Frace scenario, Italy position is probably at her opposite side.
Italy have eyes on lot of French possession and Yugoslavia (Benny favorite target) is a France protege (at least in OTL), so an alliance with the UK is natural as even the British will search a strong continental ally and if Germany can't really rearm Italy is the best choice; plus France as claim on part of north Italy so we know that we will be a target.
The war will be principally on air and sea as the Alps block any attempts from both sides ( or maybe the France can try to invade Switzerland...oh the fiend) except for North Africa where Anglo-italian troops will fight the Franco-Spanish for the control of the desert.

[MarshalBraginsky]

Also, what would a "Nazi" France do with regards to say, Imperial Japan?

[Zmflavius]

Originally Posted by MarshalBraginsky

Also, what would a "Nazi" France do with regards to say, Imperial Japan?

I'd say less friendly. She has more to lose in the Pacific. Though admittedly, not a whole lot more.