Challenge: the Northern Fujiwara as a powerhouse

[WhatIsAUserName]

Historically, the Northern Fujiwara rulers of northern Honshu were defeated by Minamoto no Yoritomo in 1189. However, is there any way to reverse this? Presumably, the divergence would before the Gempei War, and might see Minamoto no Yoshitsune win out over his brother Yoritomo. What would be the effect of this? At best, could we see a Hiraizumi Shogunate, or something to that extent?

[WhatIsAUserName]

Bump? By the way, when I say "Northern Fujiwara," I'm not talking about the Northern branch of the Fujiwara family, the one we call the Hokke branch, but rather the rulers in northeastern Honshu.

[MNP]

I thought those Northern Fujiwara were related to the Hokke in some way.

Anyhow in the Raptor of Spain the north and south of Japan have been split for about a century or a bit more thanks to a more disruptive alternate Northern/Southern Courts period. Main reasons for it: Northerners have more horses (less horse trading with the south for iron/rice), Southerners have more difficulty asserting authority among the outlying lords. Other changes include the Emishi being more successful way back in the conquest period, and Chinese culture having longer lasting influence.

[WhatIsAUserName]

Originally Posted by MNP

I thought those Northern Fujiwara were related to the Hokke in some way.

A quick bit of Wiki research shows that the reported ancestor of the Northern Fujiwara, Fujiwara no Hidesato, is a son of Fujiwara no Fusaki, the founder of the Hokke, but I'm pretty sure that Hidesato wasn't a member of the Hokke because he wasn't from the main line. I mean, the Minamoto clan was descended from an Emperor of Japan, but that doesn't make the Minamoto clan part of the imperial clan. I definitely don't think Fujiwara no Kiyohira can be considered part of the Hokke.

Originally Posted by MNP

Anyhow in the Raptor of Spain the north and south of Japan have been split for about a century or a bit more thanks to a more disruptive alternate Northern/Southern Courts period. Main reasons for it: Northerners have more horses (less horse trading with the south for iron/rice), Southerners have more difficulty asserting authority among the outlying lords. Other changes include the Emishi being more successful way back in the conquest period, and Chinese culture having longer lasting influence.

Horses are an important part, and Chinese culture would definitely make things interesting if Northern Honshu becomes more independent and culturally unique. However, my objections would first be that the Northern and Southern Courts is a century after the Northern Fujiwara were crushed, unless you're having an early split between North and South. Second, I'm thinking that a stronger Emishi might remove the Northern Fujiwara in the first place, since the Northern Fujiwara rule over them in the first place, and if the Emishi aren't conquered, there is no Northern Fujiwara regime to speak of. Your scenario is still an interesting split between North and South, but it doesn't enhance the power of the Northern Fujiwara specifically.

[MNP]

Right, I forgot to add that the north/south split occurred much earlier (1050s or so) and the north has Kanto. It's not so much that they're a powerhouse, but they're culturally different, more unified compared to the southern regime, and strong enough that military conquest of the north by the south is unlikely.

I agree, it's not what you asked for, but perhaps it will spark an idea or two.

[WhatIsAUserName]

Originally Posted by MNP

Right, I forgot to add that the north/south split occurred much earlier (1050s or so) and the north has Kanto. It's not so much that they're a powerhouse, but they're culturally different, more unified compared to the southern regime, and strong enough that military conquest of the north by the south is unlikely.

I agree, it's not what you asked for, but perhaps it will spark an idea or two.

Not sure, but wasn't Kanto already fairly valuable at this point in time? I mean, why would Kamakura be chosen as the seat of bakufu then?