A More Personal Union

[jkarr]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

No I don't think he has any claim to thoses throne. As for Lorraine it would be a good reparation for the war and the holy emperor is not really in position to negotiate much.
http://www.laurenhasten.com/Europe_1600.jpg I know it's OTL but Lorrainne is the blue territory bordering France in the east. Milan I think it's asking to much.

did france ever give up its claim to the throne of naples in the 16th centuary, cos i always though they still had it

[Civitas]

Originally Posted by jkarr

did france ever give up its claim to the throne of naples in the 16th centuary, cos i always though they still had it

I believe France renounced those claims in 1559 in the Peace of Cateau-Cambresis - right before this TL begins.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Would it be safe to remove Spain's Italian possessions from Spain, either recreate an independent Milan (if passing it to French hands proves impossible), Naples and Sicily?

[jkarr]

Originally Posted by Civitas

I believe France renounced those claims in 1559 in the Peace of Cateau-Cambresis - right before this TL begins.

ah rught, but wouldnt it be also fairly easy to renage on the treaty...it wouldnt be the first time medieval european powers throw out a recent treaty to get what they want

[Civitas]

Originally Posted by jkarr

ah rught, but wouldnt it be also fairly easy to renage on the treaty...it wouldnt be the first time medieval european powers throw out a recent treaty to get what they want

Indeed. With Spain thrashed, "To the victors go the spoils," and all that.

[Tyg]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

Is Madrid worth a mass? And what about Ferdinand's italian possesion? If I was France I would insist to annex Savoy to control the alps once and for all and let the napoli or sicilian elect their own King And from the empire or what's left of it I would ask Lorraine.

The answer to these questions and more hopefully can be answered with a map at some point. I'd certainly like to see how borders have been settled in this war, and where Spanish colonies end up going.

[Saya Aensland]

Do the Dukes of Lorraine still hold the Angevin claim to Naples? If so, France takes Lorraine, the Dukes of Lorraine get Naples and maybe Sicily.

[Shawn Endresen]

Welcome, Civitas.

Aside from Cuba, I don't think we have any reason to assume Spain is losing anything. Only France, England and the Dutch have the navies to actually control an overseas colony, (maybe Denmark, but Denmark already made out like a bandit to the South) the distinction between France and England becomes blurrier with every passing year, and everyone has rebuilding to do, nobody really wants a land full of Catholics as subjects (for certain values of "full" and "subjects")...and even its allies are probably wary of adding more power to France.

Henri le Cyclops is the leader of a coalition, and that's a thankless task in any era. He also already got his declared objective, a non-Habsburg on the Spanish throne.

Italy...is not a prize for Henri and Henri to bicker over. The French burned half of it without trying to occupy it (wisely enough), the Neapolitans were basically untouched by the war, and Wilhelm will likely back them. In short, Italy has a rare window of opportunity to throw all three of the big boys out, and I won't be surprised if they take it.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Before they go and burn themselves over Italian affairs and bring about a repeat of the Italian Wars...In all honesty, only way the Italians would ever decide to throw all GP's out, is if they decided to abandon their differences and rally around a leader capable of uniting all Italy.

[Xgentis]

Originally Posted by jkarr

ah rught, but wouldnt it be also fairly easy to renage on the treaty...it wouldnt be the first time medieval european powers throw out a recent treaty to get what they want

Maybe Henri could give thoses thrones to cadet branch of the Valois as to not rule them himself after what Henri l'autre did to Spain.
But still I think they will be allowed to elect their own king the alliance is exhausted and another Italian advanture is not what France need.
Annexing Savoy yes it was an active member of the league and that's all.

[Razgriz 2K9]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

Maybe Henri could give thoses thrones to cadet branch of the Valois as to not rule them himself after what Henri l'autre did to Spain.
But still I think they will be allowed to elect their own king the alliance is exhausted and another Italian advanture is not what France need.
Annexing Savoy yes it was an active member of the league and that's all.

That's true, it's time to rebuild...

But are there any other Valois cadet branches left to give the throne to? I dunno if any of Francis' brothers had children TTL.

[Grouchio]

And will Thespitron ever answer our individual questions?

[Xgentis]

Originally Posted by Razgriz 2K9

That's true, it's time to rebuild...

But are there any other Valois cadet branches left to give the throne to? I dunno if any of Francis' brothers had children TTL.

I doubt they remained unmaried but I really doubt Henri III will ask for anything other then Savoy. Sicily and Naples barely did anything against France they were too busy watching if the Ottomans made any moves.
Damn with such weakened HRE the Ottoman would be in a perfect position to press in Italy and in Hungary that's really bad hopefully Russia will make them busy.

[jkarr]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

I doubt they remained unmaried but I really doubt Henri III will ask for anything other then Savoy. Sicily and Naples barely did anything against France they were too busy watching if the Ottomans made any moves.
Damn with such weakened HRE the Ottoman would be in a perfect position to press in Italy and in Hungary that's really bad hopefully Russia will make them busy.

in a way though your last sentence gives the alliance a reason to take naples and sicily...to prevent the ottomans from expaning into the peninsula

[Razgriz 2K9]

Why would they? If I remember correctly, the French and the Ottomans, while not allied, did enjoy friendly relations. What's not to say let the Ottomans take Naples and Sicily?

[jkarr]

Originally Posted by Razgriz 2K9

Why would they? If I remember correctly, the French and the Ottomans, while not allied, did enjoy friendly relations. What's not to say let the Ottomans take Naples and Sicily?

yes but in tl its very unlikly that france and the ottomans would have a coridal relationshio...plus the other powers would see it as a threat to europe itself haveing a islamified sountern italy, and may even want to take it and convert it to protestanism themselves, giving them a easy strike against rome if they ever needed it....or even just the loss of face theyd get having it fall to the ottomans...there are plenty of reasons why they woudlnt want naples and sicily to fall

[Xgentis]

Ottoman Venice and Malta is a real problem for Italy it's a chame that Charles of Austria died he was the only one who realised how dangerous the Ottoman are even Spain is threatened directly North Africa is also in Ottoman hands something has to be done to reduce their power.

[SavoyTruffle]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

Ottoman Venice and Malta is a real problem for Italy it's a chame that Charles of Austria died he was the only one who realised how dangerous the Ottoman are even Spain is threatened directly North Africa is also in Ottoman hands something has to be done to reduce their power.

And the excrement hit the fan when he died. Being the Only Sane Man TTL is suffering.

[Tyg]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

Ottoman Venice and Malta is a real problem for Italy it's a chame that Charles of Austria died he was the only one who realised how dangerous the Ottoman are even Spain is threatened directly North Africa is also in Ottoman hands something has to be done to reduce their power.

The only major Catholic power left here is Poland, and IOTL they were consistent opponents of Ottoman power... In this case, its the only credible ally of Hungary, Serbia, or the Italian states given the immense weakness of the Empire and the dramatic fall of the Hapsburgs.

[Thespitron 6000]

Winter 1598 - 1599: Winifred Shakespeare completes Lucretia and Brutus, the third play in her “Roman cycle”. The play covers much of the same ground as Kyd’s Tarquinius, but Shakespeare’s play focuses on the need for vengeance after the rape of Lucretia, and the importance of the sanctity of a woman’s honor to the smooth functioning of society. Kyd, meanwhile, has moved on to more current events; his History of Henry VIII meets resounding cheers when first staged in Shoreditch.

In February 1599, Ferdinand of Uceda arrives in Veracruz, on the coast of Mexico. With him are his wife and son, three hundred of his personal bodyguard, and Manuel Luis Perez de Guzman, the son of the Duke of Medina-Sidonia and one of Ferdinand’s most loyal retainers. New Spain is a strange land, humid and hot even in the depths of winter. From the beginning, Ferdinand’s goal is to raise an army capable of taking back Spain from his enemies, but it quickly becomes clear that this is a total impossibility. The infrastructure, the trained men, the ports, the weapon manufacturing centers, the citadels, the agriculture--all are needed and all are absent. Worse, the garrison in Veracruz is insubordinate and at times mutinous. The garrison commander has little respect for his ersatz king. With an iron will, Ferdinand sets about cleaning up Veracruz’s government. Mounting a palace coup, he claps the governor and garrison commander in chains before the two men have time to react, then he sets about bringing the garrison under his personal command, reshaping them into a fighting force worthy of calling themselves the bodyguards of the King of Spain. Ferdinand has learned much fighting the French, and sets about reinventing the flintlock arquebus and the Besson knife, putting the colony’s small numbers of blacksmiths to work forging the weapons.

Ferdinand now has a new goal--hewing a totally new state, a state capable of fighting the whole of Europe if necessary, out of the rough timber that is New Spain.

He is going to have problems. In Peru, Walter Raleigh and his band of guerrillas have not received word that the war is effectively over, and are busy fighting an increasingly enraged Lima, whose governors send out more and more troops to crush the insurrectionists interfering with their silver shipments. Hunted across Peru, the English mercenaries have no choice but to pull back as the lands surrounding Potosi become increasingly forbidding. They have not been forgotten, but Elizabeth and Walsingham have no way of contacting them and telling them to come home. They are on their own.

Retreating north from Potosi, the English expedition hopes to fight their way to the coast and perhaps hijack a ship, but is balked at every turn by Spanish patrols. Their one advantage is that over the preceding four years, they’ve developed a rapport with the native Quechua, who find Spanish rule onerous. Indeed, most of them are now reasonably fluent in Quechua, and the natives are more than willing to help them, especially when Raleigh and company disrupt the extraction of the mita, or levied labor. Once an honored gift to the kings of the Inca, it has under the Spanish become little more than slavery, and the fact that Raleigh’s men are willing to fight against it is a major mark in their favor. As a result, when it becomes clear to the Quechua that the English cannot long survive as a fighting force under increased Spanish pressure, they take it upon themselves to inform Raleigh of a hidden Inca city, not far from Cuzco, where the English might be able to find shelter and a chance to regroup.

Trekking deep into the forests clinging to the slopes of the lower Andes, Raleigh and his men arrive at Vilcabamba bedraggled and exhausted. The Inca at the hidden city speak a dialect of Quechua distinct enough from the common tongue that the English require interpreters. Despite the Incan initial hostility, once the rulers of Vilcabamba realize what an asset Raleigh’s small army of mercenaries might prove to be in their struggle for independence, they welcome the English with open arms. From this hidden base, Raleigh sees an opportunity to strike at Lima, while the Vilcabamban ruler Thupaq Inca sees the English firearms and steelworking knowledge as valuable tools to lever a free Inca state away from the hated Spanish.