That Wacky Redhead

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by e_wraith

Olympics fever! Actually, I truly have no idea if how the Olympics were viewed and covered in this time period. I guess tape delays were less of an issue with no Internet, at least.

In the UK, coverage was far more limited than today as there were limits on the BBC and ITV covering the same events. Googling, it seems that ITV broadcast the summer olympics in 1972 and 1976 while the BBC broadcast the winter olympics. IMS, while one channel would have the main broadcast rights, the other could show highlights as part of the news programmes.

Cheers,
Nigel.

[Brainbin]

In light of the 31 (!) posts that have been made since my last, I won't be able to respond to each of you in detail, but please know that I've been following all of your discussions avidly, and I really appreciate your input. Now, that said, here are some of my thoughts on your thoughts.

Originally Posted by e of pi

Characters? We don't need no steenkin characters. If every show on the air was Junkyard Wars, I might not complain too much. :P

I know you're joking here, but I've always felt that characterization is one of television's greatest potential strengths as a medium.

Originally Posted by NCW8

I'd put it down to being associated with Kit. You know how the Germans love their cars

Then why isn't the voice of KITT, William Daniels, a big star over there? He has the better resume: 1776, St. Elsewhere, Knight Rider, and Boy Meets World (Mr. Feeny!).

Originally Posted by Falkenburg

Intriguing as ever, Brainbin. Cheers!

Thank you, Falkenburg

Originally Posted by Orville_third

Will Mary Tamm's career change ITTL? She was an excellent Romanadvoratrelundar, and she had a recurring role in Coronation Street. (Of course, she may not get a Doctor Who role, especially if her RADA classmate Louise Jameson doesn't get a role...)

That's a very good question. One that merits some investigation...

Originally Posted by phx1138

Doesn't make it less good IMO. (I liked "St Elsewhere" for that tone, too.) Too many sitcoms rely on character stupidity for humor, when they don't have to.

I understand that Flanderization is a common problem with sitcoms, but I think that Cerebus Syndrome is just as much of one. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

Originally Posted by The Blue-Eyed Infidel

I'm not in the industry (or even anywhere close) but my understanding is that advertisers have concluded that older viewers have locked in their preferences, so advertising targeted at them is less effective.

Not sure it's entirely correct, but I can see why they might think that.

This is indeed the most frequently proffered explanation, yes. I'm sure they have their reasons.

Originally Posted by e_wraith

Damn, didn't even occur to me that I was ruining my lurker credentials by posting. I have such a long tradition of lurking, too, message boards, usenet... All ruined by this timeline of yours!

Well, I'm honoured I have a long history of lurking myself. A tough habit to break, but it does have its rewards

Originally Posted by e_wraith

I wouldn't even know where to start. Bravo for extending UFO, though it was before my time I caught much of it on Universal HD a few years ago, and it deserved at least another season.

All part of the continuing British Invasion. And it was the golden opportunity that Billington needed to become James Bond. So it suited my purposes very nicely!

Originally Posted by e_wraith

And you killed M*A*S*H, which presumably saves us from several thousand hours of Alan Alda moralizing... Nice.

Definitely a fringe benefit of eliminating that show. ITTL, Alan Alda might even have to play a character whose opinions are different from his own!

Originally Posted by e_wraith

Though you also saved Jane Fonda's career... So definitely not a utopia.

Indeed not. No getting around it, either - her career mostly recovered even IOTL, after all, so there's no keeping her down.

(I won't comment on your sociopolitical speculations, except to say that your thoughts are most intriguing )

Originally Posted by e_wraith

Anyway, keep up the good work, I look forward to the next update!

Thank you so much!

Originally Posted by unclepatrick

Did Robert H Justman produce the series Search in 1972 before Rock Around the Clock?

No - since 1971, Justman has been Executive in Charge of Production for all of the shows produced by Desilu, with no time for anything else.

Originally Posted by unclepatrick

Would he produce the 1977 Man from Atlantis Pilot or is he too involved with Rock Around the Clock?

There's only one way to find out!

Originally Posted by Nivek

Did You have some hate to M*A*S*H? I've never seen that show before but is pretty well revered and fondly rememberd for some US Citizen i've meet....

Welcome aboard, Nivek! To answer your question: I'm not a US citizen, so there you go

Originally Posted by Nivek

An Galaxy Quest Esque Movie will happen here some how?

It's possible - Spaceballs was released in 1987 IOTL, after all...

Originally Posted by Nivek

How The Anime(Japananimation as originaly called in USA) will come here to the americas? In OTL was Carl Mackere work with Macross/Tatsunoko(after Losing the chance with Gundam)

Excellent question! It's not something I feel I can answer without taking the time to really look into the subject IOTL.

Originally Posted by e_wraith

Awww... That's just cruel! Especially since I am not used to waiting! I suppose I will have to learn to be patient. But where's the fun in that?

Welcome to AH.Com

Originally Posted by e_wraith

Now this is an interesting point... With the success of science fiction ITTL, maybe North America can get original MS Gundam before the 2000s? Given that O'Neill space colonies are probably stick around in the Western consciousness far longer due to the path of the space program, I don't think it is impossible at all. Tomino was right to keep Macek away from it, though. Not that I had anything against the Robotech mish mash of shows, I loved it as a kid.

Well, I can say that Speed Racer (perhaps the most successful anime in the West prior to the 1980s) was produced and localized as IOTL.

Originally Posted by Orville_third

Will we see Tom Baker and Lalla Ward plugging Prime Computers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJeu3LCo-6A

I can't possibly answer that question without giving away other plot details, so you'll have to wait and see, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by NCW8

Hopefully Mollie Sugden will be cast to play Dawn's mother (instead of Sandra's). Mrs Hutchinson was a great role for her - in some ways better than Mrs Slocombe - and in later seasons the dialogs between her and Carol's mother were often the high-point of an episode (IMHO, of course).

I'm afraid that Mollie Sugden must be cast as Mrs Slocombe ITTL - and I am unanimous in that! - although I understand that it's far more common for British actors to juggle two recurring roles at a time (another advantage of so few episodes per season, I gather). If it seems plausible, I could cast her in that role as well.

Originally Posted by The Professor

Though hopefully for my ATL self (assuming I still exist!) Daisy Bates shall remain...

Well, my initial plans (which I have not revisited in quite some time) indicated that the butterflies would radiate from Hollywood to most isolated regions of the world. But given the election of Humphrey and the end of the overseas quagmire, it's probably a reasonably safe bet that nobody born on or after January 1, 1970, would exist ITTL - though, given the Mini-Boom of the early 1970s, many "brothers" or "sisters" would exist that did not IOTL.

(I would imagine that virtually everyone born on or before June 30, 1967, would be safe from the conception butterflies).

Originally Posted by e_wraith

Speaking of public service messages... I hope Schoolhouse Rock is still on track. I still have Conjunction Junction stuck in my head!

I only remember two sketches - but the same guy sang both of them. This was one, "I'm Just a Bill" was the other. As to whether it will exist ITTL? We'll see...

Originally Posted by e_wraith

It's really interesting to see so many people younger than myself interested in this time period (Obviously Brainbin included!). Personally thanks to watching Columbo I have had a keen interest in TV shows from the 60s and 70s, seeing what is different with today's programs. In style, pacing, technology... And even (or especially) outlook, I guess.

Something I've complained a great deal about on other threads (and in correspondence with other people - you know who you are), but not so much on this one, is my disdain for the cynical, ironic, and post-modern outlook of popular media in this day and age. One of the main reasons I'm drawn to the works of earlier eras is because of their sincerity and simplicity. A lot of people blame this sea change on the loss of a societal drive and direction after the Soviet Union collapsed - they may be on to something.

Most of my (vocal) readership is older than I am, if only by a few years in some cases - though there are a few that are younger than me.

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Then why isn't the voice of KITT, William Daniels, a big star over there? He has the better resume: 1776, St. Elsewhere, Knight Rider, and Boy Meets World (Mr. Feeny!).

I wasn't being entirely serious. To be clear, I'm an ex-pat Brit living in Switzerland, which is a good place to see German tv, but doesn't necessarily give me a special insight into German character. However, from what I've read, Hasselhoff had the good fortune to be performing in a concert in Berlin when the wall came down, which was the most important feel-good moment in post-war German history. If you've seen the film Good Bye Lenin!, it'll give you some idea of the excitement of that time. It also shows some of the nostalgia that some east Germans have for the DDR (so called "Ostalgie"). I've just driven back through part of the old East Germany, and in the service stations there you can buy t-shirts with the slogan "DDR - ich war dabei" ( DDR - I was there!).

Edit: If you haven't seen Good Bye Lenin, the East German protagonist indulges in a sort of alternate history as he tries to convince his mother (an ardent communist who's just woken from a coma) that the DDR is still a going concern.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I'm afraid that Mollie Sugden must be cast as Mrs Slocombe ITTL - and I am unanimous in that! - although I understand that it's far more common for British actors to juggle two recurring roles at a time (another advantage of so few episodes per season, I gather). If it seems plausible, I could cast her in that role as well.

I've nothing against Mrs Slocombe or her pussy! IOTL, Mollie Sugden did appear in The Liver Birds as the mother of Nerys Hughs' character (she enters at about the 10:40 point in this clip), so unless you have some other role lined up for her, it should be plausible. She was probably the most important of the supporting characters in the series - Carla Lane said that she based the character on her own mother. That may be the reason why she seems a more three-dimensional character than Mrs Slocombe. I've no doubt that ITTL, the mother of Pauline Collins' character would appear in the second season (I don't think she was in the first season OTL), and would be similar to OTL's Mrs Hutchinson.

Edit: OTOH feel free to butterfly away Come Back Mrs Noah.

Cheers,
Nigel

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

No - since 1971, Justman has been Executive in Charge of Production for all of the shows produced by Desilu, with no time for anything else.

TTL, yes. OTL, WP says he was. So if the show wasn't pitched to Desilu, does this mean it has been butterflied by Justman not moving on? (I liked "Search" a lot...)

Originally Posted by Brainbin

There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

I think so, & IMO it looks a lot like "St Elsewhere", "Harry's Law", "House", & "Breaking Bad".

[e of pi]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I know you're joking here, but I've always felt that characterization is one of television's greatest potential strengths as a medium.

No, I disagree. Television's strength lies entirely in its ability to more accurately convey welding sparks. This is its one true purpose. :P

Something I've complained a great deal about on other threads (and in correspondence with other people - you know who you are)

Most of my (vocal) readership is older than I am, if only by a few years in some cases - though there are a few that are younger than me.

Hey! I resemble those remarks! Anyway, to get something a bit more on-topic, I saw this today and thought it'd be worth sharing.

[e_wraith]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

Something I've complained a great deal about on other threads (and in correspondence with other people - you know who you are), but not so much on this one, is my disdain for the cynical, ironic, and post-modern outlook of popular media in this day and age. One of the main reasons I'm drawn to the works of earlier eras is because of their sincerity and simplicity. A lot of people blame this sea change on the loss of a societal drive and direction after the Soviet Union collapsed - they may be on to something.

This is a very interesting point. It seems like modern society is just too cool for school in so many ways. Every remark is made with sneer, every comment ironic in intent. And when modern culture looks back on past generations, all we often see are the negatives. Sure, they achieved a few minor things like going to the moon, but what was the point, they were RACISTS! And the true irony is that the battle against racism and society's ills was being fought then, and on a battlefield much more deadly than people face today. Perhaps, as you said, it is a loss of direction that makes us jealous of a past that has a seemingly clear narrative, a clear path forward. Though at the time there was no such thing, of course. People were as afraid of change then as they are now. But to all things comes and end, and someday maybe we can be optimistic without being ironic about it. Okay, enough, I think I am giving a Joe Friday Dragnet 1969 speech here.

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

the works of earlier eras is ...their sincerity and simplicity

They make me feel like it's naiveté & even willful ignorance: in effect, denial. Comedy or drama, set in the '50s, you'd barely know people were terrified of the Bomb (just listen to the pop music) & under constant threat of harassment over their politics (thanks to McCarthy being a lunatic). Comedy or drama, set in the '60s, you'd barely know there was marching in the streets, opposition to Vietnam, or movements on civil rights. Not from anything I've seen, anyhow.

[Thande]

I'm more with Brainbin on this one, though obviously it is a matter of perspective and balance. I think it's because I grew up at a time when being 'dark' and 'hardcore' for the sake of it was used as a tool by lazy creators that I prefer media to be more optimistic in tone. I particularly dislike it when people think 'dark' means 'more realistic'. The Christopher Nolan Batman films may have a darker and grittier style, but they're just as far-fetched as the Adam West Batman, it's just less obvious.

Re the point phx1138 raised, I think something that has to be remembered is a variation on what TVTropes calls "Nothing But Hits": when looking back on what seems emblematic of a decade or period, we often think of the most dramatic things like wars, riots/protests, public movements, assassinations and so on. But that wasn't what it was like to actually live through that decade: those things were, generally, not as important or influential as we think now. You can make a case for some US TV shows never mentioning the 'V word' at all considering the widespread social and political effects of that war, but there's no reason why it should dominate. Nowadays from people's vision of the 80s (in the UK) you'd think that people spent every day talking about Thatcher, corrupt businessmen, the miner's strike and the Falklands War, but that isn't a realistic reflection of what the 80s was like, and 80s-made media reflects that.

As for the last post, I liked this variation on Happy Days. Like much of Brainbin's AH media it hits what I consider the sweet spot of being recognisable but interestingly different. Which is arguably the point of AH in general, seeing the Statue of Liberty holding a swastika in place of a torch is more shocking and 'interesting' than seeing the whole statue replaced with something else altogether.

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Thande

I grew up at a time when being 'dark' and 'hardcore' for the sake of it was used as a tool by lazy creators that I prefer media to be more optimistic in tone. I particularly dislike it when people think 'dark' means 'more realistic'.

I agree with that. The change in comics in that direction did not make them better. Nor did I dislike JLE because it wasn't dark; in fact, it worked precisely because it was insanely light-hearted. I also liked the X-Men's "days off" stories best. The "grimdark" era was a response to the perceived popularity of "gritty", without realizing the "gritty" was being done by very talented people...& for good reasons. I can just imagine people trying to copy the Morrsion DPs ...except nobody I know ever understood them, or knew anybody who did, which would tend to discourage copying.

Originally Posted by Thande

when looking back on what seems emblematic of a decade or period, we often think of the most dramatic things like wars, riots/protests, public movements, assassinations and so on. But that wasn't what it was like to actually live through that decade: those things were, generally, not as important or influential as we think now.

I wouldn't disagree with that, either, & I may be giving the '50s & '60s shows less credit than they deserve. If so, it's down to a matter of taste. I'm thinking of "All in the Family", which seemed to strike the right balance. (OTOH, I don't recall it mentioning the war or the oil shock...but it's been a long time.)

Originally Posted by Thande

I consider the sweet spot of being recognisable but interestingly different. Which is arguably the point of AH in general, seeing the Statue of Liberty holding a swastika in place of a torch is more shocking and 'interesting' than seeing the whole statue replaced with something else altogether.

Me, too. Except the Statue being replaced entirely actually makes more sense... And the swastika switches & such are all too often lazy & convenient.

[Brainbin]

Originally Posted by NCW8

I wasn't being entirely serious. To be clear, I'm an ex-pat Brit living in Switzerland, which is a good place to see German tv, but doesn't necessarily give me a special insight into German character. However, from what I've read, Hasselhoff had the good fortune to be performing in a concert in Berlin when the wall came down, which was the most important feel-good moment in post-war German history.

I am familiar with the finer details of the situation, but thanks for sharing them with the thread anyway. It really is one of those "truth-is-stranger-than-fiction" moments.

Originally Posted by NCW8

Edit: OTOH feel free to butterfly away Come Back Mrs Noah.

A space-based sitcom? In this much space-friendlier timeline? Hmmm.

Originally Posted by phx1138

TTL, yes. OTL, WP says he was. So if the show wasn't pitched to Desilu, does this mean it has been butterflied by Justman not moving on? (I liked "Search" a lot...)

In the wake of Moonshot Lunacy, Search would probably still be made ITTL, though with similar results (remember, Star Trek is lightning-in-a-bottle).

Originally Posted by e of pi

Hey! I resemble those remarks! Anyway, to get something a bit more on-topic, I saw this today and thought it'd be worth sharing.

Thanks for the link! Those are some great posters - I can't wait to see how the other 75 turn out!

Originally Posted by e_wraith

This is a very interesting point. It seems like modern society is just too cool for school in so many ways. Every remark is made with sneer, every comment ironic in intent. And when modern culture looks back on past generations, all we often see are the negatives. Sure, they achieved a few minor things like going to the moon, but what was the point, they were RACISTS! And the true irony is that the battle against racism and society's ills was being fought then, and on a battlefield much more deadly than people face today. Perhaps, as you said, it is a loss of direction that makes us jealous of a past that has a seemingly clear narrative, a clear path forward. Though at the time there was no such thing, of course. People were as afraid of change then as they are now. But to all things comes and end, and someday maybe we can be optimistic without being ironic about it.

Very well said. It seems to have been easier to believe in or care about something back then - without justification or qualification.

Originally Posted by e_wraith

Okay, enough, I think I am giving a Joe Friday Dragnet 1969 speech here.

Indeed, you've just highlighted that someone like Jack Webb could never be successful in this day and age. He's too earnest.

Originally Posted by phx1138

They make me feel like it's naiveté & even willful ignorance: in effect, denial. Comedy or drama, set in the '50s, you'd barely know people were terrified of the Bomb (just listen to the pop music) & under constant threat of harassment over their politics (thanks to McCarthy being a lunatic). Comedy or drama, set in the '60s, you'd barely know there was marching in the streets, opposition to Vietnam, or movements on civil rights. Not from anything I've seen, anyhow.

Topicality, by definition, ages very poorly. And one of the primary goals of entertainment is escapism. And this is not a lesser goal than satire; far from it. We have the news media to inform and educate. Entertainment should, first and foremost, entertain. It reminds me of certain comedians, who are always on about how "the purpose of comedy is to challenge societal norms", or what have you - no, it isn't. The purpose of comedy is to make people laugh. It astounds me how this simple, fundamental definition is beyond so many people. If I wanted to applaud and agree with what you're saying, I would attend a political rally. I want to laugh!

Originally Posted by Thande

I'm more with Brainbin on this one, though obviously it is a matter of perspective and balance. I think it's because I grew up at a time when being 'dark' and 'hardcore' for the sake of it was used as a tool by lazy creators that I prefer media to be more optimistic in tone. I particularly dislike it when people think 'dark' means 'more realistic'. The Christopher Nolan Batman films may have a darker and grittier style, but they're just as far-fetched as the Adam West Batman, it's just less obvious.

Yes, by the same token, I don't want to make it seem that there isn't a place for entertainment that challenges our perceptions and makes us question our values - of course there is. But I reject the notion that it should be the ideal, that it's inherently superior than something that dares to make its audience laugh, or tugs at their heartstrings.

Originally Posted by Thande

Re the point phx1138 raised, I think something that has to be remembered is a variation on what TVTropes calls "Nothing But Hits": when looking back on what seems emblematic of a decade or period, we often think of the most dramatic things like wars, riots/protests, public movements, assassinations and so on. But that wasn't what it was like to actually live through that decade: those things were, generally, not as important or influential as we think now. You can make a case for some US TV shows never mentioning the 'V word' at all considering the widespread social and political effects of that war, but there's no reason why it should dominate. Nowadays from people's vision of the 80s (in the UK) you'd think that people spent every day talking about Thatcher, corrupt businessmen, the miner's strike and the Falklands War, but that isn't a realistic reflection of what the 80s was like, and 80s-made media reflects that.

This is very true. What's interesting about the 1990s, of course, is that it has the exact opposite problem - everyone remembers that era as the "decade about nothing", but of course we on this forum all know much better than that. Of course, these ironic, cynical, post-modern attitudes have still carried on to the present day.

Originally Posted by Thande

As for the last post, I liked this variation on Happy Days. Like much of Brainbin's AH media it hits what I consider the sweet spot of being recognisable but interestingly different. Which is arguably the point of AH in general, seeing the Statue of Liberty holding a swastika in place of a torch is more shocking and 'interesting' than seeing the whole statue replaced with something else altogether.

Well, thank you very much, Thande! And welcome back from your holiday

Originally Posted by phx1138

I agree with that. The change in comics in that direction did not make them better. Nor did I dislike JLE because it wasn't dark; in fact, it worked precisely because it was insanely light-hearted. I also liked the X-Men's "days off" stories best. The "grimdark" era was a response to the perceived popularity of "gritty", without realizing the "gritty" was being done by very talented people...& for good reasons. I can just imagine people trying to copy the Morrsion DPs ...except nobody I know ever understood them, or knew anybody who did, which would tend to discourage copying.

One of the underlying realities of human behaviour. Especially in the entertainment industry. In a way it's reassuring, because you can always count on it

Originally Posted by phx1138

I wouldn't disagree with that, either, & I may be giving the '50s & '60s shows less credit than they deserve. If so, it's down to a matter of taste. I'm thinking of "All in the Family", which seemed to strike the right balance. (OTOH, I don't recall it mentioning the war or the oil shock...but it's been a long time.)

The interesting thing about All in the Family, which I've been trying to make clear in my posts about Those Were the Days ITTL, is that it turned out as rich and nuanced as it did largely against the wishes of its creator, Norman Lear - it was in fact Carroll O'Connor who was the driving force in humanizing Archie, and the focus on character interaction.

Enough soapboaxing. I don't want to be as bad as those I'm criticizing I hope to have the next update ready in the next few days! And it's a real doozy, too!

[e of pi]

Something I'd like to note is that there's two things here people are complaining about, griddark and ironic, they are not the same thing, though many works with one have the other--there's a lot of ironic grimdark, but there's a good portion of un-ironic grimdark. I'm having trouble thinking of an example of ironic non-grimdark, though that's largely because I'm not much of a media consumer these days.

I used to think poorly of MLP:FiM specifically because I thought it was this, that it was more about "Hey guys, isn't it ironic that we're watching a kids show where everything's nice and happy?" However, having seen a couple episodes myself and read a bit of the fandom activity (mainly our very own neighborhood Pony Thread) I get that that's not true, and in fact that it's very un-ironic about what it is, and that a lot of the fan enjoyment seems to be un-ironic as well. In fact, I wonder if that's part of the attraction: that it takes itself seriously without being grimdark? I can see how that would be attractive, and I think if I wasn't so busy with work and Eyes and stuff I might watch more myself, but as it is I can barely stay on top of other IPs I already am a fan of.

I hope no one takes offense at the above, I promised Brainbin I'd do my best not to kick off more Pony Wars in his thread when I observed this over IM--if it is offensive in any way please understand it wasn't intentional and I'd be interested in understanding more.

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by e of pi

Something I'd like to note is that there's two things here people are complaining about, griddark and ironic, they are not the same thing, though many works with one have the other--there's a lot of ironic grimdark, but there's a good portion of un-ironic grimdark. I'm having trouble thinking of an example of ironic non-grimdark, though that's largely because I'm not much of a media consumer these days.

Ironic non-grimdark ? How about Lazy Town ? The "better-than-average" hero, Sportacus, encourages the children of the town to be more active. This upsets the villain of the piece, Robbie Rotten, the laziest man in town. Robbies's plans to get rid of Sporticus make him the most active person in town.

Cheers,
Nigel.

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I am familiar with the finer details of the situation, but thanks for sharing them with the thread anyway. It really is one of those "truth-is-stranger-than-fiction" moments.

Sorry for lecturing about something that you already know.

Originally Posted by Brainbin

*A space-based sitcom? In this much space-friendlier timeline? Hmmm.

Oh my God! What have I done

The show really wasn't very good and in OTL didn't deserve a second season (unlike Star Cops which I think is going to be outside the range of your TL). The quality of script writing needed to be better - it recycled too much from Are You Being Served and It Ain't Half Hot Mom. Maybe it would have got over that in a second season. It probably also needs a different lead. Mollie Sugden was a good supporting actress, but she didn't really have what it takes to be the star. Maybe Patricia Routledge would have been a better choice.

Edit: Reading the Wikipedia article, it seems that Star Cops was first pitched to the BBC as a radio programme in 1981. If that series had been made then it could have been adapted for tv later - hopefully without OTL's production disagreements and being screwed by the network.

Cheers,
Nigel.

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

The interesting thing about All in the Family, which I've been trying to make clear in my posts about Those Were the Days ITTL, is that it turned out as rich and nuanced as it did largely against the wishes of its creator, Norman Lear - it was in fact Carroll O'Connor who was the driving force in humanizing Archie, and the focus on character interaction.

I did get that, & I find it interesting. I only meant, as a show dealing with social issues. "Maude" was probably even more "socially conscious" in the period at issue, & if anything, "Soap" even more so (on the one "biggie", anyhow).

The more I think of it, the more I realize even the shows I liked & admired ("M*A*S*H", "WKRP", "Soap", & "Barney Miller") didn't dwell on "big stuff" like oil shocks or foreign wars. They did hit serious notes, at times, & would mention serious stuff, at times, but even "M*A*S*H" tried to maintain the fiction of it being a comedy.

If the '50s & '60s shows treated current events the same way (& I've seen little enough of them to know), I wouldn't have complained, nor would I now. (I'm not going to be a hypocrite about it.) It's perception, I suppose. Also, none of the above shows is what I'd consider cynical or "too cool for its own good". (The last sitcom I actually liked, "Rhythm & Blues", was more a black "WKRP" & was gone so fast, it's hard to know if it was...)

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by phx1138

If the '50s & '60s shows treated current events the same way (& I've seen little enough of them to know), I wouldn't have complained, nor would I now. (I'm not going to be a hypocrite about it.) It's perception, I suppose. Also, none of the above shows is what I'd consider cynical or "too cool for its own good". (The last sitcom I actually liked, "Rhythm & Blues", was more a black "WKRP" & was gone so fast, it's hard to know if it was...)

The shows that are most likely to deal with current issues are satirical comedies and soap operas, neither of which are repeated much partly because they are so topical. For example That Was The Week That Was dealt with such subjects as the Profumo Affair. In 1971 Coronation Street had an episode dealing with the problems the residents had dealing with the intoduction of decimal coins.

Other comedies might refer to current events, but those aren't necessarily the ones that we consider significant now. For example, in 1954 France had had several changes of goverment in a short time, which inspired the Goon Show episode "The Missing Prime Minister", in which 10 Downing Street goes missing along with the British PM:

Originally Posted by Eccles

He's been kidnapped by the French, an' they've given 'im a job. Don't worry, it's a very short job - Prime Minister of France.

Three years later, this episode was re-recorded for the BBC Transcription Service. The punchline above was dropped from the script, presumably because it was no longer topical.

Cheers,
Nigel.

[Thande]

Originally Posted by NCW8

Other comedies might refer to current events, but those aren't necessarily the ones that we consider significant now. For example, in 1954 France had had several changes of goverment in a short time, which inspired the Goon Show episode "The Missing Prime Minister", in which 10 Downing Street goes missing along with the British PM:

Three years later, this episode was re-recorded for the BBC Transcription Service. The punchline above was dropped from the script, presumably because it was no longer topical.

As you imply, things like the Goons come from an era in which things typically went out either live and unrecorded, or were recorded, sent out once and then the tapes were wiped due to Equity laws (see our Doctor Who discussion a few pages back). So it made sense to do topical jokes in those. Whereas by the time sitcoms in the 70s were going out in the UK (probably true earlier on in the US) executives knew that they would be repeating them in the future, so they avoided so many topical references.

This is arguably still true today, in that executives assume that explicitly topical shows like "Have I Got News For You" won't have replay value (at least more than a year or so after they first went out) and thus don't release them on DVD, whereas a quick glance at Youtube or some of the satellite channels will show that this is bollocks and plenty of people still laugh at twenty-year-old topical jokes.

Oh, and a similar 1950s topical Goon punchline to the one you mentioned above, from "Tales of Old Dartmoor", when Grytpype-Thynne is talking about an agreement to sail the prison across the Channel to France: "...I've been in touch with one of the French governments..."

[NCW8]

Originally Posted by Thande

As you imply, things like the Goons come from an era in which things typically went out either live and unrecorded, or were recorded, sent out once and then the tapes were wiped due to Equity laws (see our Doctor Who discussion a few pages back). So it made sense to do topical jokes in those. Whereas by the time sitcoms in the 70s were going out in the UK (probably true earlier on in the US) executives knew that they would be repeating them in the future, so they avoided so many topical references.

True. There have been a couple of attempts to record sitcoms shortly before transmission to allow them to reference current events. There was The Party Line on BBC Radio 4 and Drop the Dead Donkey on Channel 4.

Originally Posted by Thande

This is arguably still true today, in that executives assume that explicitly topical shows like "Have I Got News For You" won't have replay value (at least more than a year or so after they first went out) and thus don't release them on DVD, whereas a quick glance at Youtube or some of the satellite channels will show that this is bollocks and plenty of people still laugh at twenty-year-old topical jokes.

That's probably why the Friday night Radio 4 comedies (The Now Show and The News Quiz) are available as podcasts, but other comedies aren't.

Cheers,
Nigel.

[Thande]

Originally Posted by NCW8

That's probably why the Friday night Radio 4 comedies (The Now Show and The News Quiz) are available as podcasts, but other comedies aren't.

Cheers,
Nigel.

Indeed. All you ever get released for sale are compilations of 'best bits'. It's quite annoying. I had a similar experience as a kid with "Peanuts" strip compilations: now I'm an adult, they've finally released the entire set, including all the (often very funny) topical strips that were never included in the compilation books I think it's an example of that "Viewers are goldfish" attitude.

[phx1138]

Originally Posted by NCW8

The shows that are most likely to deal with current issues are satirical comedies and soap operas, neither of which are repeated much partly because they are so topical.

The one place that came to my mind was Carson's monolog. And Johnny had a real talent for sensing when it was OK to mention sensitive subjects, so even then, the war might not have turned up. (He waited a fair while to mention Nixon, & when he did, Nixon was done. I've seen a doc on Carson, & people were saying, "Now that Johnny's doing it, Nixon is finished." I believe it.)

Originally Posted by Thande

plenty of people still laugh at twenty-year-old topical jokes

Yeh. It's not like nobody understands... Even if you weren't alive then, necessarily. After all, how many people don't get the "I...am not a crook" gag (complete with "V" signs--or without)? Hell, I've heard stories of whole audiences watching Trek 3 & getting McCoy's failed neck pinch--& the only person who didn't was from China.

Originally Posted by Thande

"...I've been in touch with one of the French governments..."

Y'know, I wouldn't be surprised if people who didn't know the context wouldn't laugh anyhow, thinking, "Is he stupid, or what?"

Originally Posted by Thande

an example of that "Viewers are goldfish" attitude

Well, as somebody once said, "You'll never go broke underestimating the intelligence of your audience." Or, by all accounts, your executives.

[Brainbin]

Originally Posted by e of pi

I hope no one takes offense at the above, I promised Brainbin I'd do my best not to kick off more Pony Wars in his thread when I observed this over IM--if it is offensive in any way please understand it wasn't intentional and I'd be interested in understanding more.

And I should make it known that I did agree with his conclusions when he made them, despite being personally unfamiliar with the program in question (I know it only by reputation). Though with regards to shows that are ironic but not grimdark: there aren't that many today, because of the popularity of gothic and vampires and zombies and what have you, but there were in the 1990s, including Seinfeld (which defined the decade, much as The Cosby Show did the 1980s, and All in the Family the 1970s).

Originally Posted by NCW8

Ironic non-grimdark ? How about Lazy Town ? The "better-than-average" hero, Sportacus, encourages the children of the town to be more active. This upsets the villain of the piece, Robbie Rotten, the laziest man in town. Robbies's plans to get rid of Sporticus make him the most active person in town.

Having seen LazyTown (unfortunately - those puppets are nightmare fuel), I can testify that it is largely sincere. It's just kooky in that Nordic/Scandinavian fashion (the show is/was produced in Iceland). Think Sesame Street with a Europop soundtrack.

Originally Posted by NCW8

Sorry for lecturing about something that you already know.

Don't be. You see, the corrosive effect of irony? I was being entirely complimentary. There are plenty of people reading who didn't know that and are glad that you reported it. I only know it because I make it my business to know these things

Originally Posted by NCW8

The show really wasn't very good and in OTL didn't deserve a second season (unlike Star Cops which I think is going to be outside the range of your TL). The quality of script writing needed to be better - it recycled too much from Are You Being Served and It Ain't Half Hot Mom. Maybe it would have got over that in a second season. It probably also needs a different lead. Mollie Sugden was a good supporting actress, but she didn't really have what it takes to be the star. Maybe Patricia Routledge would have been a better choice.

Hey! Not a bad idea. A fun way to get one of my favourite British actresses into my timeline. (She should have been Dolores Umbridge, thank-you-very-much.)

Originally Posted by phx1138

I did get that, & I find it interesting. I only meant, as a show dealing with social issues. "Maude" was probably even more "socially conscious" in the period at issue, & if anything, "Soap" even more so (on the one "biggie", anyhow).

And it's interesting that, in the annals of popular culture, both Maude and Soap are today remembered primarily for a singular event or character, respectively, and little else. (Okay, I guess if you count Benson, then Soap is remembered for two things. Meanwhile, I look at cast pictures and see Mona, Dr. Harry Weston, Benson, and Billy Crystal.)

I'm not making a judgement call either way on that, it's just interesting to think about. Funny how we remember a whole host of events from I Love Lucy and The Honeymooners; how they aren't pinned down to a singular event or character in the popular imagination. And look at their profound influence on the genre.

Originally Posted by Thande

As you imply, things like the Goons come from an era in which things typically went out either live and unrecorded, or were recorded, sent out once and then the tapes were wiped due to Equity laws (see our Doctor Who discussion a few pages back). So it made sense to do topical jokes in those. Whereas by the time sitcoms in the 70s were going out in the UK (probably true earlier on in the US) executives knew that they would be repeating them in the future, so they avoided so many topical references.

This is arguably still true today, in that executives assume that explicitly topical shows like "Have I Got News For You" won't have replay value (at least more than a year or so after they first went out) and thus don't release them on DVD, whereas a quick glance at Youtube or some of the satellite channels will show that this is bollocks and plenty of people still laugh at twenty-year-old topical jokes.

Well, once again, to play the devil's advocate to my own arguments, something that remains tremendously popular on both sides of the Atlantic is the Looney Tunes. Even the newest of the classic cartoons are over a half-century old now. But people still watch them, and they still laugh, even though they are positively replete with topical humour. Is it because those geniuses at Termite Terrace were also good enough to balance it out with slapstick and visual gags? Well, it can't have hurt.

I'm not sure whether similar conditions would apply to the old British comedies on television, not having seen any of them.

Originally Posted by phx1138

The one place that came to my mind was Carson's monolog. And Johnny had a real talent for sensing when it was OK to mention sensitive subjects, so even then, the war might not have turned up. (He waited a fair while to mention Nixon, & when he did, Nixon was done. I've seen a doc on Carson, & people were saying, "Now that Johnny's doing it, Nixon is finished." I believe it.)

If we're going to talk about The Tonight Show with Johnny, I'll share one of my observations: many people remember his last proper show with guests, on May 21, 1992. There were two of them, actually: Robin Williams, and Bette Midler. Williams, of course, came on and did his schtick and made everybody laugh with his extremely topical jokes (it was an election year, so of course you could probably date his routine down to the very day anyway). It probably wasn't even half as funny by Election Day. (It was Arsenio Hall who scored the big coup for that election, if you'll recall). And then Bette Midler came on. And it really is such an astounding contrast: he was so rigidly dated, whereas she was allowed to be utterly timeless. And to the credit of those watching at the time, they realized right away that they were bearing witness to something truly special.

And of course, 20 years on, people still remember her singing to Johnny. They don't really talk about Robin Williams and his jokes that night.

Originally Posted by phx1138

Yeh. It's not like nobody understands... Even if you weren't alive then, necessarily. After all, how many people don't get the "I...am not a crook" gag (complete with "V" signs--or without)? Hell, I've heard stories of whole audiences watching Trek 3 & getting McCoy's failed neck pinch--& the only person who didn't was from China.

You discuss the phenomenon known as Pop Cultural Osmosis, which really helps to demonstrate how popular culture brings people together.