Alternate Austria flag/coat of arms

[Berus]

Previously the Five eagle coat of arms was meant to represent the habsburg dominions in the alps, the red-white-red shield represented lower and upper austria.

So i guess it would need a 13th century POD in which the five eagle CoA would stay as the Coat of Arms for German speaking Austria instead of red white red, but the rest of the history till 1890 is the same as OTL, or would this be considered ASB ? I am not so sure, but i doubt the changing of a Flag/CoA would change the course of history much...

sorry for my bad english, but i hope you know what i mean, i mean to keep the OTL Lower Austria coat of arms as coat of arms for whole Austria instead of the red-white-red one.

[Berus]

Can someone answer ?

[jkarr]

hmm...the main reason why austria got the red-white-red is because of the previous owners of austria, the house of badenberg, otokar and possibly earlier ( the first reference is in 1105), and when the habsburgs came into possession of austria, all the rulers previous had used the red-white-red flag as austrias standard so they just aped it rather than change it (possibly to help mantain continuity)...

best way to change it really is after otokar II of bohemia takes over austria, have him change it to something else, then when the habsbrugs take it, have them change it to watever you want, buyt mabye still keep it as a backdrop to calm local nobles and the like

[LSCatilina]

You won't have a CoA for "German speaking Austria" made in the 13th century. Before the whole heraldic system degenerated into a joke where anything could represent anything, it was a personal (familial, town) symbol.

It wasn't used for representating concepts.

Now, the only CoA I know for Habpsburg House is the red lion on yellow field.
The "Old Austria" came from the Babenberg dynasty whom these arms are attributed (with concurrent ones bearing a black lion).

It seems they were used back by Maximilan to represent his power on Lower Austria, but without attested use earlier alone or combined with CoA of Austria (whom we have actual sources).

[Berus]

So the babenbergs had a black lion on their coat of arms ?

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Berus

So the babenbergs had a black lion on their coat of arms ?

No, you have attributed arms that could be eagles, or a lion, or both (depending on the era)...
It's possible it existed, but it's possible the attribution is tardive, as it's actually unsourced.

One of the greatest pleasures of late Middle Age was to give arms to anybody, especially when they didn't had CoA. (Charlemagne, Jesus, Satan, Clovis, Edward the Confessor, God...)

What we know for sure, it's the red/white/red CoA is the earliest proven arms for the rulers of Austria.

[Berus]

The Babenberger had two lions on their coat of arms ? What were previous symbols/seals/coat of arms of previous Austrian rulers ? Aside from the double headed eagle. the OTL Lower austrian coat of arms would be a possibility too.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Berus

The Babenberger had two lions on their coat of arms ?

Again, they maybe didn't had, maybe had.

This was ATTRIBUTED coat of arms, with few indications it could have been the real CoA

What were previous symbols or if possible animals assosciated with austria or Austrian rulers ? Aside from the double headed eagle.

Without real source, it could have been anything. Animal, symbol, abstract figure...

Certainly that before XII century, they didn't had familial CoA but COULD have personal ones, changing regarding rulers.

It's even likely that the triband scheme was pre-existing to Leopold V/Fridriech II as it was shown for late margravians. However, without colour indication, nothing says it was the same than actual.

the OTL Lower austrian coat of arms would be a possibility too.

Didn't the OTL Lower Austria CoA based on so-called "old Austria"? and/or "Austria" just 90° turned?

[Berus]

ok. i ask because i need a heraldic beast for german austria, i dont really want to use a eagle thouh, i want to use something different. Would it be possible that, after Austria-Hungary reforms, the German austrian heraldics choose a ibex for the coat of arms ? Since there never really was a heraldic animal for Austria (except for the double headed eagle, which is used in the coat of arms of whole Greater Austria in my timeline)