Spanish annexation of Portugal, late 18th Century

[Socrates]

For a timeline I'm thinking of, there are stronger, more centralised, better financed Bourbon states in France and Spain. How viable is it for a combined mass Napoleon-size army to annex Portugal? If not, is there another way to integrate Portugal into Spain via personal unions.

For what it's worth, Prussia is out of the picture and Russia and Austria are at each other's throats, so will struggle to work together.

[oudi14]

I know next to nothing about Iberian history, but any Spanish occupation of Portugal sounds like a perfect recipe for a Portugese war of liberation, lasting for however long it takes. I wonder how Britain will respond to this. Weren't the 2 countries allies?

[Simreeve]

Originally Posted by oudi14

I know next to nothing about Iberian history, but any Spanish occupation of Portugal sounds like a perfect recipe for a Portugese war of liberation, lasting for however long it takes. I wonder how Britain will respond to this. Weren't the 2 countries allies?

They were indeed, and Britain would have acted under those circumstances: After all, we were at war with France and/or Spain IOTL for large sections of that time-period anyway. H'mm, in fact the Franco-Spanish alliance's best chance of sucess would probably have been if they'd made this attempt during the American War of Independence...

[Socrates]

Originally Posted by Simreeve

They were indeed, and Britain would have acted under those circumstances: After all, we were at war with France and/or Spain IOTL for large sections of that time-period anyway. H'mm, in fact the Franco-Spanish alliance's best chance of sucess would probably have been if they'd made this attempt during the American War of Independence...

But would Britain be capable of acting on her own? The peninsular war took six years to get rid of the French in OTL. Here you don't have the Spanish guerillas, and France isn't having to deal with Prussia/Austria/Russia. I don't think Britain has the army for it.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Socrates

But would Britain be capable of acting on her own? The peninsular war took six years to get rid of the French in OTL. Here you don't have the Spanish guerillas, and France isn't having to deal with Prussia/Austria/Russia. I don't think Britain has the army for it.

this is starting to sound like a french wank to me.

France somhow has no ther problems and everyone in europe apart from pourtugal and britain bows to her feet?

maybe a lttle Tl to give us an idea of whats hapened

[Socrates]

Originally Posted by Danth

this is starting to sound like a french wank to me.

France somhow has no ther problems and everyone in europe apart from pourtugal and britain bows to her feet?

maybe a lttle Tl to give us an idea of whats hapened

Main differences are that Prussia collapses earlier in the Seven Years' War, and gets dismantled down to rump Brandenburg while the Tsaritsa is still alive. However, France still loses multiple colonies to Britain, as another invasion of Hannover fails. The next war goes badly for France due to a financial crisis hitting in the middle, but she manages to force through serious tax increases on the nobility and other economic reforms. This gives her the money to seriously buildup a big army to get revenge on Britain, and the primary war strategy is to hit Portugal hard and fast with a mass army. The alliance with Austria is still in place, who holds off Russia.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Socrates

Main differences are that Prussia collapses earlier in the Seven Years' War, and gets dismantled down to rump Brandenburg while the Tsaritsa is still alive. However, France still loses multiple colonies to Britain, as another invasion of Hannover fails. The next war goes badly for France due to a financial crisis hitting in the middle, but she manages to force through serious tax increases on the nobility and other economic reforms. This gives her the money to seriously buildup a big army to get revenge on Britain, and the primary war strategy is to hit Portugal hard and fast with a mass army. The alliance with Austria is still in place, who holds off Russia.

okay this makes sense to me know

bitain would beat the french in navel power
spain and french armies invade pourtugal succesfully
constant gureillia war
their are going to be some in spain that are unhappy with this war.
eventually britain liberates pourtugal after taking out spainish islands.
France dominate power in europe and holds a puppet spain?

somehing like that

[Simreeve]

But unless France is already trying to impose a Napoleon-like 'Continental System', which would require control of pretty well all the rest of Europe too, how does it helping Spain to take over Portugal -- which wouldn't really have been much use to Britain as an ally in a war of aggression against France during that period -- actually help it gain revenge against Britain? Or, at least, what makes France think that that would be helpful?

[Iori]

I don't know why the idea of Spain ruling Portugal seems so impossible to people, since it did happen IOTL.

The Iberian Union lasted from 1580-1640, and it was really primarily some specific internal politics and stuff that prevented it lasting longer.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Simreeve

But unless France is already trying to impose a Napoleon-like 'Continental System', which would require control of pretty well all the rest of Europe too, how does taking over Portugal -- which wouldn't really have been much use to Britain as an ally in a war of aggression against France during that period -- actually help it gain revenge against Britain? Or, at least, what makes France think that that would be helpful?

It would please Madrid, who might want Portugal as compensation for overseas losses or losses in Italy.

[Socrates]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

It would please Madrid, who might want Portugal as compensation for overseas losses or losses in Italy.

It also consolidates Bourbon control over Western Europe, as they won't have to face a two front land war again.

[Tocomocho]

18th cent Spain was content with having an independent but friendly Portugal. The 1808 planned partition was the lovechild of Godoy and Napoleon and didn't benefit Spain in the less.

[Faralis]

Originally Posted by Tocomocho

18th cent Spain was content with having an independent but friendly Portugal. The 1808 planned partition was the lovechild of Godoy and Napoleon and didn't benefit Spain in the less.

This. After Napoleon´s "would you let me pass an army to conquer Portugal, just Portugal, I promise..." Spain would never try to "support" France by conquering Portugal, and most of the conflict with Britain was minor and always defensive. They actually had better relations with Portugal than ever before ...

The PoD should be very long ago, like maybe no French invasion, but the butterflies are so many that frankly Portugal´s destiny is just a minor footnote ( no offense intended ) ...

[Socrates]

Originally Posted by Faralis

This. After Napoleon´s "would you let me pass an army to conquer Portugal, just Portugal, I promise..." Spain would never try to "support" France by conquering Portugal, and most of the conflict with Britain was minor and always defensive. They actually had better relations with Portugal than ever before ...

The PoD should be very long ago, like maybe no French invasion, but the butterflies are so many that frankly Portugal´s destiny is just a minor footnote ( no offense intended ) ...

Read up the thread. The POD is in the 1750s and there is a strong Bourbon alliance, rather than the distrust surrounding Napoleon.