"Now Blooms the Tudor Rose."

[Poor Little Rhode Island]

As the saying goes: "The HRE makes Baby Jesus cry".

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

I believe another saying is true:
"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers".

Even today Germany is not a monolithic block:
- North vs. South
- East vs. West
- Everyone vs. Bavaria ! (The chance for a (real) Bavarian to become chnacellor is zero!)

So the situation we have in TTL is normal for Germany.

In OTL the HRE was de facto dissolved with the Westphalian Peace of 1648! But the Emperor had lost his power long before that.

[Space Oddity]

Originally Posted by Barbarossa Rotbart

In OTL the HRE was de facto dissolved with the Westphalian Peace of 1648! But the Emperor had lost his power long before that.

Actually, no, it wasn't. In fact, the immediate fallout of the Thirty Years War was to make the Emperor--if not the Empire--more powerful than he'd been in years. But one can argue--though it is debatable--that Westphalia sped up the internal rot.

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

Originally Posted by Space Oddity

Actually, no, it wasn't. In fact, the immediate fallout of the Thirty Years War was to make the Emperor--if not the Empire--more powerful than he'd been in years. But one can argue--though it is debatable--that Westphalia sped up the internal rot.

If that was the plan, it failed!
Several electors becoming kings of realms outside the HRE (England, Prussia, Poland)...
Wars between member states of the HRE...
An extremely slow bureaucracy (including justice)...

[Arachnid]

Originally Posted by Space Oddity

"...And yet ultimately, it is a mistake to call the Second Schmakaldic War a War of Religion. As demonstrated by the various feuds of the Dukes of Brunswick, Reformed, Evangelical and Catholic fought for many reasons, of which dynastic ambitions were often the foremost. One could argue that this was true of the Wars of Religion as well--and yet such an argument falls flat in the face of the annihilationist rhetoric that so dominates the early and middle stages of those later conflicts. For all its chaos, for all its hardship, for all its viciousness, for all its horror, the Second Schmakaldic War was fought between foes willing to at least entertain the idea of coexistance..."

Walter Heinz, Every Man For Himself, And God Against All[1]: A History of the Second Schmakaldic War (1974)

Am I the only one who finds this slightly worrying?

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

Originally Posted by Arachnid

Am I the only one who finds this slightly worrying?

Yes. That's Germany!

[Space Oddity]

Originally Posted by Arachnid

Am I the only one who finds this slightly worrying?

Heh... I was waiting for someone to notice that bit...

Originally Posted by Barbarossa Rotbart

If that was the plan, it failed!
Several electors becoming kings of realms outside the HRE (England, Prussia, Poland)...
Wars between member states of the HRE...
An extremely slow bureaucracy (including justice)...

All of which happened a long time after Westphalia.

[ed_montague]

Speaking of the Thirty Year's War: Swedeeeeen

I mean, really. We've got Erik XIV, who's reasonably competent and not too unstable, brother Johan is down for the moment, Magnus is off where he can't do much harm...things are going pretty good for that Scandinavian country. Anyone else cheering for Sweden in this TL?

[Derekc2]

Originally Posted by ed_montague

Speaking of the Thirty Year's War: Swedeeeeen

I mean, really. We've got Erik XIV, who's reasonably competent and not too unstable, brother Johan is down for the moment, Magnus is off where he can't do much harm...things are going pretty good for that Scandinavian country. Anyone else cheering for Sweden in this TL?

I am also cheering. Wasn't Erik XIV also the father of Gustav Adolph II? I hope he will not be butterflyed away. He was one of the greatest kings ever.

[ed_montague]

Originally Posted by Derekc2

I am also cheering. Wasn't Erik XIV also the father of Gustav Adolph II? I hope he will not be butterflyed away. He was one of the greatest kings ever.

Erik fathered a prince named Gustav, but not the one you're thinking of. Gustavus Adolphus Rex Sueciae was the son of Charles, the youngest brother of Erik. He still has a chance--Erik's still kind of unstable, Johan is languishing in semi-exile, Magnus probably has the best chance to succeed in a power play but is off being Duke of Estonia...Charles actually stands to win big as long as he keeps quiet and manages to produce an heir. Not that it's likely that said heir will end up being the Gustav II Adolf that we know and love, but we ended up with an intelligent Elizabeth Tudor (who wasn't so much of a virgin), so who knows.

[Grouchio]

I would prefer to cheer for my ancestral fatherland of Denmark...

[ed_montague]

Originally Posted by Grouchio

I would prefer to cheer for my ancestral fatherland of Denmark...

Boo! Hiss!

Just kidding. Sweden loves you too. Even if you don't love Sweden.

[Brainbin]

I think by now you should all be very much aware of which side I will always be cheering for. Not that any of you asked, mind, but still...

[Derekc2]

Originally Posted by Brainbin

I think by now you should all be very much aware of which side I will always be cheering for. Not that any of you asked, mind, but still...

Which side exacly?

[Brainbin]

Originally Posted by Derekc2

Which side exacly?

Let's just say I'm an admirer of the House of Tudor

[Elfwine]

And I think my allegiance is similarly predictable.

All right thinking people (and even Protestants*) should agree that Prince Karl von Spanien** is at least interesting and promising,

But I'm rooting for Ferdinand as the legitimate (and so far, decent) emperor - although that may also have something to do with finding anti-royal aristocrats to be anathema than being in favor of the Imperial cause per se, my Team Hapsburg banner aside.

* Kidding. But as a Habsburg supporter, that makes me at least nominally pro-Catholic in this timeline.

** Cawwos. Using German in honor of his grandfather.

[Poor Little Rhode Island]

Originally Posted by Derekc2

I am also cheering. Wasn't Erik XIV also the father of Gustav Adolph II? I hope he will not be butterflyed away. He was one of the greatest kings ever.

Personally, I LOVE Gustav Adolph (even if I came by that admiration by reading the "1637" novels)!!

[Derekc2]

Originally Posted by Poor Little Rhode Island

Personally, I LOVE Gustav Adolph (even if I came by that admiration by reading the "1637" novels)!!

I also came to think he's awesome by the 1632 book series. (It's name is 1632 series actually.)

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Derekc2

I also came to think he's awesome by the 1632 book series. (It's name is 1632 series actually.)

AARARRGGGGGHHHH. Real Vasa was not that nice!

[Derekc2]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

AARARRGGGGGHHHH. Real Vasa was not that nice!

ALWAY'S VASA!!!

Man Eric Flint is one awesome writer. That book series is what got me into Alternate History in the first place.

Cardinal Richulu is also cool.