Official TL-191 Discussion Thread

[Richter von Manthofen]

TD established that Japan is stronger than OTL.

US and Germany do not have conflicting spheres of Influence (IIRC) but Japan is gaining in China and SE Asia, also expanding in the pacific.

So IMHO all is set up for conflict Japan vs. XXX

I also think Japan might go at Russia (just defeated) pushing well into Siberia. Russia could thus call for help to Germany (sort of Russia TTL = Germany OTL/Japan TTL = Russia OTL)

[Nerdlinger]

While I'm waiting for more feedback regarding how Featherston could have done better in the SGW, here's another question. Why did the Mormons revolt during the SGW? Their revolt in the FGW was understandable, but by 1937, Utah had already been returned to "normalcy." The military occupation was lifted, the Mormon Church was made legal again, and the state had representation in Congress and the ability to vote for president. Was polygamy still outlawed? I suppose that could have triggered an uprising, but I dunno. Did it just come down to the Mormons wanting to be completely independent of the US? I'd have thought they'd realized by then the impossibility of a sovereign Deseret.

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

So, what was the reception for the idea? Would it make the US say uncle?

I forget, to be honest. It was years ago, and the forum had a capacity of 20 pages of threads. When it got filled to capacity, new threads on page 20 bumped old threads on page 1 into internet oblivion. The board might not actually exist anymore.

Originally Posted by Daaharu

I took a look back at the last chapter of In at the Death—while they are talking about how strong the alliance is, that's largely to be expected in the wake of such a devastating conflict, and there is a hint of doubt as to whether it will remain that strong. The Soviet Union and the United States were still on somewhat-friendly terms as our Second World War was wrapping up.

That's because they had a common enemy on a common field, the latter of which they shared for the next 40 years in addition to the peripheries in the Third World. The United States and the German Reich in TL-191 each have their own continental-wide spheres of influence filled with peoples who hate them and a potential threat of nuclear proliferation amongst said peoples. Also, what conflict of ideology exists between the two allies?

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

While I'm waiting for more feedback regarding how Featherston could have done better in the SGW, here's another question. Why did the Mormons revolt during the SGW? Their revolt in the FGW was understandable, but by 1937, Utah had already been returned to "normalcy." The military occupation was lifted, the Mormon Church was made legal again, and the state had representation in Congress and the ability to vote for president. Was polygamy still outlawed? I suppose that could have triggered an uprising, but I dunno. Did it just come down to the Mormons wanting to be completely independent of the US? I'd have thought they'd realized by then the impossibility of a sovereign Deseret.

Polygamy was always outlawed; Utah never would have entered the Union if it were otherwise.

The Forty-Oners were die-hards outside the LDS establishment who probably did what they did only because they thought they were backing a winner in Jake Featherston.

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

I forget, to be honest. It was years ago, and the forum had a capacity of 20 pages of threads. When it got filled to capacity, new threads on page 20 bumped old threads on page 1 into internet oblivion. The board might not actually exist anymore.

OK, but what's your take? Would the Confederates' seizing Pontiac and Detroit have caused the US to cave in to Featherston's demands?

Originally Posted by Trotsky

Polygamy was always outlawed; Utah never would have entered the Union if it were otherwise.

The Forty-Oners were die-hards outside the LDS establishment who probably did what they did only because they thought they were backing a winner in Jake Featherston.

Well, that makes sense, but it did seem like every single Mormon except Governor Young was rebelling against the US Army.

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

OK, but what's your take? Would the Confederates' seizing Pontiac and Detroit have caused the US to cave in to Featherston's demands?

No. The Confederacy couldn't take Pittsburgh and defend both sides of the salient with the too few soldiers it had, and it wouldn't be able to push through Toledo and Detroit to Port Huron and defend both sides of the salient with the too few soldiers it had.

Well, that makes sense, but it did seem like every single Mormon except Governor Young was rebelling against the US Army.

Everyone else in Utah knew they were going to get it in the neck once the die-hards blew things up.

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

No. The Confederacy couldn't take Pittsburgh and defend both sides of the salient with the too few soldiers it had, and it wouldn't be able to push through Toledo and Detroit to Port Huron and defend both sides of the salient with the too few soldiers it had.

Ah. My thought was that the US seemed to end up with a lot more men and materiel east of Ohio than west of it. That's how they were able to commit so much to the push in Virginia. If the Rebs play defense in eastern Ohio and go after Detroit in the west, I think the US would be harder pressed to stop them than if the CS headed toward Pittsburgh as in the books.

Originally Posted by Trotsky

Everyone else in Utah knew they were going to get it in the neck once the die-hards blew things up.

Fair enough.

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

Ah. My thought was that the US seemed to end up with a lot more men and materiel east of Ohio than west of it. That's how they were able to commit so much to the push in Virginia.

There's always Canada, which would be the point of this operation in the first place.

But if what you were saying about the placement of US armies were true, the USA would just need to hammer at the east side of the salient. The situation for the drive to the St. Clair River, not that they could reach it, is probably the worse one for the CSA picture since both ends of the salient would need to be defended.

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

There's always Canada, which would be the point of this operation in the first place.

But if what you were saying about the placement of US armies were true, the USA would just need to hammer at the east side of the salient. The situation for the drive to the St. Clair River, not that they could reach it, is probably the worse one for the CSA picture since both ends of the salient would need to be defended.

I concede. So do you think there's anything else the CS could have done to win the war, or were they doomed to lose from the start?

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

I concede. So do you think there's anything else the CS could have done to win the war, or were they doomed to lose from the start?

Get the bomb way, way earlier, and somehow give the impression it's just the first among many ready to be used.

Other than that, the USA is in no mood to dicker with the South after June 22, 1941 unless its on their unconditional terms.

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

Get the bomb way, way earlier, and somehow give the impression it's just the first among many ready to be used.

Other than that, the USA is in no mood to dicker with the South after June 22, 1941 unless its on their unconditional terms.

Well, if FitzBelmont had been given the go-ahead in 1941, and if some of the resources being wasted on "population reduction" were instead devoted to a nuclear project, this might be a possibility. Reach Lake Erie, hold the line in Virginia, and nuke Detroit ASAP. How about that?

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

Well, if FitzBelmont had been given the go-ahead in 1941, and if some of the resources being wasted on "population reduction" were instead devoted to a nuclear project, this might be a possibility. Reach Lake Erie, hold the line in Virginia, and nuke Detroit ASAP. How about that?

Then a third or a quarter of Detroit's area turns radioactive, and the men who drove the bomb there shot as spies.

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

Then a third or a quarter of Detroit's area turns radioactive, and the men who drove the bomb there shot as spies.

Well, Potter got away with nuking Philadelphia. Suppose that the nuke were hidden aboard a ship and detonated while the ship was halfway up the Detroit River.

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

Well, Potter got away with nuking Philadelphia. Suppose that the nuke were hidden aboard a ship and detonated while the ship was halfway up the Detroit River.

Potter's raiders entered U.S.-controlled territory from a quiet sleepy sector, not through a live front line in a bastard big truck carrying something that weighed ten tons. Maybe they could start further down the line and go the long way; and maybe their chances of breaking down and or being caught go up that much higher.

And why would Detroit even be the target?

[Nerdlinger]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

Potter's raiders entered U.S.-controlled territory from a quiet sleepy sector, not through a live front line in a bastard big truck carrying something that weighed ten tons. Maybe they could start further down the line and go the long way; and maybe their chances of breaking down and or being caught go up that much higher.

And why would Detroit even be the target?

To further reduce the ability of the Americans to ship resources from west to east and men and materiel the other way. Of course, they could go for the throat and try to hit Philadelphia.

[Daaharu]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

That's because they had a common enemy on a common field, the latter of which they shared for the next 40 years in addition to the peripheries in the Third World. The United States and the German Reich in TL-191 each have their own continental-wide spheres of influence filled with peoples who hate them and a potential threat of nuclear proliferation amongst said peoples. Also, what conflict of ideology exists between the two allies?

I think I did mention earlier that I didn't personally think that a cold war (at least on the scale of that of our own timeline) was necessarily likely—I just feel like, if TL-191 were to continue in a Turtledovian fashion, there would need to be some sort of conflict like that. I suppose a Japan vs. U.S./Germany conflict could satisfy the need for the proxy wars in southeast Asia, but I'm not sure if it would parallel our own timeline to the extent that Turtledove normally does.

I really am interested in hearing your take on where TL-191 would go if Harry Turtledove were to continue it—I've been taking a look around here and have seen quite a few threads continuing it, but maybe not in necessarily a Turtledovian way. I think it's an interesting subject which was suggested which merits some discussion.

[Nerdlinger]

Here's another question: After the Confederates reached Sandusky, why did the US decide to attack Virginia rather than counterattacking in Ohio? Was this due mainly to MacArthur's messed up priorities? Was HT trying to parallel something from OTL?

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by Nerdlinger

Here's another question: After the Confederates reached Sandusky, why did the US decide to attack Virginia rather than counterattacking in Ohio? Was this due mainly to MacArthur's messed up priorities? Was HT trying to parallel something from OTL?

MacArthur commanded only in Northern Virginia, so he wasn't the one who shifted the initiative there from Ohio. The historical parallel was the idea that the East was the theater the war would be won in, not the West.

[Bmao]

My viewpoint is that Gordon McSweeney should have lived to become a USA version of Jake Featherston. That dude was absolutely crazy, and would have made the US side more grey and compelling were he president rather than the colorless Smith/La Follette duo.

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by Bmao

My viewpoint is that Gordon McSweeney should have lived to become a USA version of Jake Featherston. That dude was absolutely crazy, and would have made the US side more grey and compelling were he president rather than the colorless Smith/La Follette duo.

The theory from way back when was that was original plan, to have McSweeney be the Hitler analog (and Flora Hamburger Rosa Luxemburg, and Irving Morrell Erwin Rommel).

[RamscoopRaider]

Originally Posted by Bmao

My viewpoint is that Gordon McSweeney should have lived to become a USA version of Jake Featherston. That dude was absolutely crazy, and would have made the US side more grey and compelling were he president rather than the colorless Smith/La Follette duo.

Except the US would have to lose the war to stir things up an extremist like McSweeny could be elected

And the US and Central powers losing to the Entente+CSA is very, very unlikely