AHC:Screw the natives of the Americas worse.

[naraht]

I'm currently reading "A More Personal Union" which has as butterflies ended up with the Iroqouis ending up with some access to European technology and the Slaves of Cuba being helped in Revolt against the Spanish giving two native nations which are likely to get some level of respect (perhaps equivalent to Persia or India) in the European courts. I've seen other TL where some Native nation manages to survive. So the challenge is in the other direction.

AHC: Create a TL where the situation by 1900 for the Natives of the Americas is noticably *worse* than OTL. Ideas might be successful slavery of the Natives over a significant part of North America/Caribbean rather than Blacks, Andrew Jackson deciding simply to kill rather than force west, or some way to have Smallpox be more virulent

[Zuvarq]

It's hard to screw Native Americans in general any worse, or any less.

Perhaps the Mali colonize Brazil. That would cause several epidemics just like the European arrival (maybe worse since they're bring all those tropical diseases, to a tropical place, directly). And when the Europeans arrive they'll cause another epidemic. Then when Europeans arrive in North America they'll cause another epidemic there. And so on like OTL but with a few extra epidemics.

[Gunnar af Hlíðarenda]

I think they were considered useless as slaves, and Andrew Jackson slaughtering.... come on it's ridiculous.

I think they were ass whipped about as thoroughly as possible OTL.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

OTL is pretty much as bad it could get.

[RGB]

Originally Posted by naraht

AHC: Create a TL where the situation by 1900 for the Natives of the Americas is noticably *worse* than OTL. Ideas might be successful slavery of the Natives over a significant part of North America/Caribbean rather than Blacks, Andrew Jackson deciding simply to kill rather than force west, or some way to have Smallpox be more virulent

OTL. Slavery was a major institution in colonial Appalachia and there were tribes that exported slaves to the US coast, who in turn exported them to the Caribbean, where the mostly died. It ended pretty soon because they pretty much ran out of economically viable sources of slaves. Europeans didn't handle the Caribbean very well either, so blacks were imported as a long-term solution.

[Makemakean]

Wow, do we have a thread in which the goal is to win the Vlad Tepes award? Count me in!

Seeing we did have concentration camps in both the Boer War and the Spanish-American War, I don't think it should be impossible to have them constructed on the American continent prior to the year 1900 either. Is it possible to have eugenics, coupled with the kind of sub-human treatment men like Samuel A. Cartwright gave non-white races, I was wondering if we could have the formation of some kind of consensus among whites in the United States that the "filthy, degenerate Indian race" constitutes not just a political problem, but a social problem in race hygienic and that it needs be dealt with urgently. While the more "troublesome tribes" are put away in concentration camps, many others are simply made infertile medicinally after the passing of the Indian Sterilization Act.

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...dear Gods, I need help, don't I?

[yourworstnightmare]

Originally Posted by Cuāuhtemōc

OTL is pretty much as bad it could get.

Unless you have them completely wiped out by Old World diseases and nasty white people of course.

However Mexico and Peru both had too large population to be completely wiped out. Combine that with the lesser numbers of settlers for the Spanish colonies, the need for native labour and the fact that most settlers were single men and thus needed the native population to provide them with wives, OTL is as bad as you can get. It wouldn't make sense from the Spanish point of view to wipe the natives out.

[Zuvarq]

The POD could be the Mongols successfully conquering Japan, the reason does not matter, and the level to which they take hold of Japan does not matter, all that matters is that they vastly change Japan's perception of itself and the world.

Later on, in the 13th century Malinese mansa Abu Bakr II, if that legend happened (or even if it didn't, as this is an alternate scenario), leaves to explore the ocean, but actually succeeds and finds Brazil instead of him and all his men dying at sea.

The Malinese colony most likely isn't able to contact old Mali very frequently since their ships were crappy and getting across the Atlantic even at its shortest extent would be a lucky thing that happens once. But still they have a big effect on the natives, gradually expanding into Brazil and spreading Old World epidemics. Also since they lose contact, they lose immunity to a few of the Old World diseases.

In the 14th century Polynesians arrive in western South America like they may have in OTL. They wouldn't spread any epidemics most likely, but Polynesianized states could possibly develop a sense of superiority over the native states.

In the late 15th or early 16th centuries, the Europeans arrive, probably the Spanish or Portuguese in the Caribbean. More epidemics happen. And even more as they discover South America, then North America.

Then maybe in the 17th or 18th century, post-Mongol Japan or Japanese fishermen arrive on Hawaii and then on the West Coast. Eventually a colony is set up and expands eastward.

Originally Posted by Makemakean

Seeing we did have concentration camps in both the Boer War and the Spanish-American War, I don't think it should be impossible to have them constructed on the American continent prior to the year 1900 either. Is it possible to have eugenics, coupled with the kind of sub-human treatment men like Samuel A. Cartwright gave non-white races, I was wondering if we could have the formation of some kind of consensus among whites in the United States that the "filthy, degenerate Indian race" constitutes not just a political problem, but a social problem in race hygienic and that it needs be dealt with urgently. While the more "troublesome tribes" are put away in concentration camps, many others are simply made infertile medicinally after the passing of the Indian Sterilization Act.

That doesn't really seem possible. Seems a unique 'philosophy' to the Nazis.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare

Unless you have them completely wiped out by Old World diseases and nasty white people of course.

However Mexico and Peru both had too large population to be completely wiped out. Combine that with the lesser numbers of settlers for the Spanish colonies, the need for native labour and the fact that most settlers were single men and thus needed the native population to provide them with wives, OTL is as bad as you can get. It wouldn't make sense from the Spanish point of view to wipe the natives out.

So if the Spanish had done settler colonies, then things would have been worse?

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by naraht

So if the Spanish had done settler colonies, then things would have been worse?

The Spanish could not have done settler colonies, it was too early to get all that many people across the ocean.

[twovultures]

Teosinte is never developed into maize, and cassava is never domesticated. Without these staple crops, sedentary agriculture* does not develop in North, Central or lowland South America. The population at European contact is not only much smaller, it's also much more scattered, with no sedentary populations outside of some areas with rich fishing (like the Mississippi valley).

This smaller and scattered population is weaker against European violence, and many tribes will be less able to resist the initial European incursions. After the advent of disease, the Native population nadir will be much smaller than OTL. In addition, a lack of settlement may mean that colonial governments won't bother with treaties on the grounds that nomadic tribes don't really have a claim to the land as they don't cultivate it or live permanently on it, which means that the survivors of the genocides won't have legal recourse to get compensation for their land.


Well now I'm just depressed.


*part time nomadic agriculture might still be practiced, but it won't be very intensive.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

The Spanish could not have done settler colonies, it was too early to get all that many people across the ocean.

Plus the Spanish were quite selective as to who could get into the New World colonies; they did not want too many Spaniards coming into their colonies, just enough to serve as administrators or filling in the ranks of the militia. The exploitation of the native Amerindian populations was their game in their share of the Americas, not transplanting entire families to come settle the land.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Makemakean

Is it possible to have eugenics, coupled with the kind of sub-human treatment men like Samuel A. Cartwright gave non-white races

Unfortunately, I'm not sure that he can do that much as a government official of the independent CSA. And I'm not sure if there is a Health Related high government in the US prior to the Civil War (first Surgeon General was appointed by Grant)

[naraht]

Originally Posted by twovultures

Teosinte is never developed into maize, and cassava is never domesticated. Without these staple crops, sedentary agriculture* does not develop in North, Central or lowland South America. The population at European contact is not only much smaller, it's also much more scattered, with no sedentary populations outside of some areas with rich fishing (like the Mississippi valley).

Sounds like this is an effort to make the Native Americans in North America much closer to those of Australia.

[Socrates]

The Spanish went relatively easy on the whole slavery thing. If you get them up to English, Portuguese or French levels you could have the natives of central Mexico be used on cotton plantations in the Caribbean.

[Plumber]

In Decades of Darkness, more of them are dead, and the ones alive are slaves. No reservations, just plantations.

[Lycaon pictus]

In Lands of Red and Gold, they get hit with new diseases from Europe and from Australia.

[Vinland]

Yellowstone erupts before European colonization, burying a quarter of the continent in half a foot or more of volcanic ash? Granted, that would seriously screw with European (and really everyone's) agriculture, but the Native Americans would be boned beyond all belief.

[mojojojo]

Things are a bit worse for the Native Americans in this TL,http://alternatehistory.com/discussi...d.php?t=110941 mainly because the have a another set of diseases to deal with in addition to the original ones the Europeans brought

[Simreeve]

The Americas aren't colonised by Europeans, they're colonised by the Tsalal...