How to keep the Inca from being conquered.

[red1]

With the exception of hand waving away the smallpox epidemics, how could the Incas have remained free from Spain and survive *reasonably* intact with a pod of 1500?

[Cuāuhtemōc]

How about butterflying the civil war between Atahualpa and Huascar?

[Riain]

I think having Cortez fail against the Aztecs would suffice. It was his against-the-odds victory that showed what was possible.

[lordapocalipsis]

avoiding is some way civil war between Atahualpa and Huascar;
maybe avoiding extend to much and too fast

[oshron]

Originally Posted by Riain

I think having Cortez fail against the Aztecs would suffice. It was his against-the-odds victory that showed what was possible.

what if the aztecs were conquered, but not entirely defeated?

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by Cuāuhtemōc

How about butterflying the civil war between Atahualpa and Huascar?

Originally Posted by lordapocalipsis

avoiding is some way civil war between Atahualpa and Huascar;
maybe avoiding extend to much and too fast

It would end up as a Portuguese Vassal when Inca christianizes, because Brazil was already under the Portuguese and it would be the Portuguese that introduce Potatoes instead of the Spanish..

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

It would end up as a Portuguese Vassal when Inca christianizes, because Brazil was already under the Portuguese and it would be the Portuguese that introduce Potatoes instead of the Spanish..

I seem to remember the Inca expelling one Portuguese expedition to the eastern fringes of their lands prior to Pizarro. It would probably be a Spanish vassal, if it avoids being targeted and conquered by gold-hungry conquistadors.

[Riain]

Originally Posted by oshron

what if the aztecs were conquered, but not entirely defeated?

How would that happen? I don't see many options between total success and total anihilation of the few hundred Spaniards.

[oshron]

Originally Posted by Riain

How would that happen? I don't see many options between total success and total anihilation of the few hundred Spaniards.

im mainly wondering because thats one of the situations in my ASB ATL just going on that supposition, that the aztecs decide to go for a strategic retreat instead of standing and fighting, what could it look like

or you all could ignore me i only subscribed to this thread in the first place because of potential differences that could arise for my own ATL projects. i could totally see the inca as a spanish vassal and ally rather than being conquered, though

[twovultures]

Originally Posted by Cuāuhtemōc

How about butterflying the civil war between Atahualpa and Huascar?

I'll third this. By repelling the first Spanish invasion (or better yet, capturing and learning from the would-be conquistadors like in Guns of the Tawantinsayu) the Inca will not only have defeated the first wave of invasion, they will have gained some valuable insights into the new enemy and will be uniquely placed to continue resistance upon further contact.

I don't think that they would be colonized by the Portuguese. Invading the Andes overland is going to be so extremely difficult it is not going to be worth it. With this POD, it's the Spanish or nothing.

[Kishan]

The most important reason for the total failure of the Aztecs and the Incas before the forces of Cortez and Pizarro respectively, were their total ignorance about the character, goals, methods and weaknesses of the invaders. Pizarro and his men found the Incas at their weakest moment ie. at the time of a civil war. If the civil war between Atahualpa and Huascar had been averted and the Incas could face the invaders united, they might have got initial victories. If they had succeeded in taking a few Spanish warriors as prisoners too, they could have learned about the invaders. Under such a situation they could have prepared against future invasions.

[Simreeve]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

It would end up as a Portuguese Vassal when Inca christianizes, because Brazil was already under the Portuguese

You do know that Spain and Portugal had their relative spheres of influence defined in a [papally mediated] treaty whose terms both sides generally obeyed, no? The Incas were clearly on the Spanish side of the line. (Okay, admittedly so was western Brazil, but there weren't any obvious lines for a border through the Amazon basin short of the Andes...)

[Anaxagoras]

Originally Posted by Simreeve

You do know that Spain and Portugal had their relative spheres of influence defined in a [papally mediated] treaty whose terms both sides generally obeyed, no? The Incas were clearly on the Spanish side of the line. (Okay, admittedly so was western Brazil, but there weren't any obvious lines for a border through the Amazon basin short of the Andes...)

PORTUGAL: What? We're on the Spanish side of the line? Gee, we didn't know that. But we're already here, anyway, so let's start building a fort...

[Simreeve]

Originally Posted by Anaxagoras

PORTUGAL: What? We're on the Spanish side of the line? Gee, we didn't know that. But we're already here, anyway, so let's start building a fort...

But once you reach the Pacific, at least, it's pretty obvious... and in those days Spain > Portugal, so...

[Derek Pullem]

Originally Posted by oshron

im mainly wondering because thats one of the situations in my ASB ATL just going on that supposition, that the aztecs decide to go for a strategic retreat instead of standing and fighting, what could it look like

or you all could ignore me i only subscribed to this thread in the first place because of potential differences that could arise for my own ATL projects. i could totally see the inca as a spanish vassal and ally rather than being conquered, though

Nope

Inca did actually maintain a sucessor state at Vilcabamba for 35 years under Manco Inca. Spanish waited until they were strong enough / had digested the rest of the inca empire and annihilated them. The Spanish mindset was that the land was theirs by the grace of god and to allow heathen native states to exist was tantamount to blasphemy (and very poor business too!)

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by Derek Pullem

Nope

Inca did actually maintain a sucessor state at Vilcabamba for 35 years under Manco Inca. Spanish waited until they were strong enough / had digested the rest of the inca empire and annihilated them. The Spanish mindset was that the land was theirs by the grace of god and to allow heathen native states to exist was tantamount to blasphemy (and very poor business too!)

That is what I want to point out, Inca should pull a Congo and be a Vassal of Portugal if they were to survive.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

That is what I want to point out, Inca should pull a Congo and be a Vassal of Portugal if they were to survive.

So far you haven't explained why becoming a Portuguese vassal would provide any benefit or would allow for the continued survival of the Inca Empire? It's not like the Kingdom of Kongo did well as a vassal state anyways.

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by Cuāuhtemōc

So far you haven't explained why becoming a Portuguese vassal would provide any benefit or would allow for the continued survival of the Inca Empire? It's not like the Kingdom of Kongo did well as a vassal state anyways.

I think it is possible for them to become a Portiguese Vassal because the Portuguese allow the native states that are vassal to them survive, think of East Timor and Kongo, the polities there stayed and are under Portuguese protection survived and were not dissolved, they were only dissolved when they try to break from being a Portuguese Vassal just like what happened to OTL Congo.