The Union Forever: A TL

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

That might have been because I Put the map key over them, then when i moved it i just filled it with ocean

I think thats it.

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

Also, Hannover still exists right (as a subdivision)? I just based that off of a 1880's map someone did for this TL

Yes, Hannover exists. It was a province of the kingdom of Prussia but is now its own state in the Federal Kingdom of Germany.I guess we should change the map of Germany to show all of Prussia's provinces as the Kingdom of Prussia no longer exists inside the FKG. Also what do y'all think about merging the Sudentland with Saxony and Silesia? And should Austria be kept as one or two states?

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

Yes, Hannover exists. It was a province of the kingdom of Prussia but is now its own state in the Federal Kingdom of Germany.I guess we should change the map of Germany to show all of Prussia's provinces as the Kingdom of Prussia no longer exists inside the FKG. Also what do y'all think about merging the Sudentland with Saxony and Silesia? And should Austria be kept as one or two states?

Well Perhaps the Austro-Prussian war goes differently and Hannover remains Independent (albeit in the North German Confederation under Prussia), and retains its Monarch

Maybe because Hannover expects France to help out Austria (due to their stronger position), they don't decide to risk a war, and remain Neutral?

Also, I think Austria should keep the Studentland land sans Austrian Silesia (which can be joined with the rest of Silesia)

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

Well Perhaps the Austro-Prussian war goes differently and Hannover remains Independent (albeit in the North German Confederation under Prussia), and retains its Monarch

Maybe because Hannover expects France to help out Austria (due to their stronger position), they don't decide to risk a war, and remain Neutral?

Also, I think Austria should keep the Studentland land sans Austrian Silesia (which can be joined with the rest of Silesia)

No, I don't think it is necessary that Hannover remain indepedent in the the North German Confederation. Plus, I don't like there being multiple Kings in the FKG. All the other monarchial states are Duchies, Electorates, Principalites or some such. Furthermroe, several of the states in the FKG are republics under the German Monarch. Bavaria, Wuttenberg, Baden, and Austria are probably republican states having lost their monarchys after the Great War. In the FKG, Hannover could revert to its old title of Electorate, with the Elector serving as a sort of Governor.

Interesting idea about the Sudetenland. Why should Austria keep it?

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

No, I don't think it is necessary that Hannover remain indepedent in the the North German Confederation. Plus, I don't like there being multiple Kings in the FKG. All the other monarchial states are Duchies, Electorates, Principalites or some such. Furthermroe, several of the states in the FKG are republics under the German Monarch. Bavaria, Wuttenberg, Baden, and Austria are probably republican states having lost their monarchys after the Great War. In the FKG, Hannover could revert to its old title of Electorate, with the Elector serving as a sort of Governor.

Interesting idea about the Studentland. Why should Austria keep it?

I could see Hannover being demoted to an electorate, but I think having it independent inside the NGC, would be an interesting butterfly

Well, it was part of former Austria, (which at the time was Austria, Tyrol, Slovenia, Istria, Dalmatia, Galicia), I don't see an express need to change it. I imagine Germans in the Studentland would be more culturally similar to the Austrians than other Germans.

[Ares96]

It's called the Sudetenland, not the Studentland.

Also, Germany would be an Empire. It's just always been that they are, and I can't see any of the other kingdoms giving up their titles. Just my two cents.

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by Ares96

It's called the Sudetenland, not the Studentland.

Indeed it is.

Originally Posted by Ares96

Also, Germany would be an Empire. It's just always been that they are, and I can't see any of the other kingdoms giving up their titles. Just my two cents.

I have often thought about this.

Here is text from the TL describing the creation of the FKG.

" Kingdom of Prussia/ Federal Kingdom of Germany

Having occupied nearly all of the German speaking areas of Europe by the end of the war, many in the Prussian government decided that the time was at hand to finally create a pan-German state. While negotiations were ongoing in Brussels, the Kaiser convened a convention in Berlin to discuss the formation of a new German nation. At the Berlin convention there was a wide variety of fractions present from Prussia, Austria, and the south German states including militarists, monarchist, republicans, federalists, and those wanting to only incorporate the Protestant or Catholic segments of Germany. After months of debate on August 5, 1911 an agreement was finally reached in what many historians would claim to be one of the best managed compromises in political history. The German states would be united into a new constitutional parliamentary monarchy known as the Federal Kingdom of Germany with the 80 year old Frederick III as the largely ceremonial King of the Germans. Although there were some who wished to see Frederick III elevated to Emperor it was rejected for two reasons. First, there was little need to elevate the monarch’s title as with Bavaria’s and Württemberg’s kings overthrown, Saxony remained the only other Kingdom in the realm (In 1912 in exchange for an unspecified sum the King of Saxony agreed to revert back to his pre 1806 of elector). Secondly, Frederick III who had done much to support democratic reforms during his reign rejected the title stating that “a humble king is all that the good German people require.” Internally, the Kingdom itself was divided into several lander or states with significant levels of autonomy. The new German constitution called for a bicameral parliament with the lower house elected from amongst the people (women would not get the vote until the late 1920’s) and an upper house chosen from the nobility from the various states. The constitutional protected both protestant and catholic religions, freedom of assembly and press, and the rule of law. The signing of the Treaty of Brussels in October of 1911 internationally acknowledged the formation of the Federal Kingdom of Germany and made it the new dominate power on the European continent."


I originally wanted to not make it an Empire as it seems every Germany is one in most TL's. Does the explanation above work? Or should Germany have been an Empire in the TL? Is this to big of something to change?

[Ares96]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

Indeed it is.



I have often thought about this.

Here is text from the TL describing the creation of the FKG.

" Kingdom of Prussia/ Federal Kingdom of Germany

Having occupied nearly all of the German speaking areas of Europe by the end of the war, many in the Prussian government decided that the time was at hand to finally create a pan-German state. While negotiations were ongoing in Brussels, the Kaiser convened a convention in Berlin to discuss the formation of a new German nation. At the Berlin convention there was a wide variety of fractions present from Prussia, Austria, and the south German states including militarists, monarchist, republicans, federalists, and those wanting to only incorporate the Protestant or Catholic segments of Germany. After months of debate on August 5, 1911 an agreement was finally reached in what many historians would claim to be one of the best managed compromises in political history. The German states would be united into a new constitutional parliamentary monarchy known as the Federal Kingdom of Germany with the 80 year old Frederick III as the largely ceremonial King of the Germans. Although there were some who wished to see Frederick III elevated to Emperor it was rejected for two reasons. First, there was little need to elevate the monarch’s title as with Bavaria’s and Württemberg’s kings overthrown, Saxony remained the only other Kingdom in the realm (In 1912 in exchange for an unspecified sum the King of Saxony agreed to revert back to his pre 1806 of elector). Secondly, Frederick III who had done much to support democratic reforms during his reign rejected the title stating that “a humble king is all that the good German people require.” Internally, the Kingdom itself was divided into several lander or states with significant levels of autonomy. The new German constitution called for a bicameral parliament with the lower house elected from amongst the people (women would not get the vote until the late 1920’s) and an upper house chosen from the nobility from the various states. The constitutional protected both protestant and catholic religions, freedom of assembly and press, and the rule of law. The signing of the Treaty of Brussels in October of 1911 internationally acknowledged the formation of the Federal Kingdom of Germany and made it the new dominate power on the European continent."


I originally wanted to not make it an Empire as it seems every Germany is one in most TL's. Does the explanation above work? Or should Germany have been an Empire in the TL? Is this to big of something to change?

I think the reason Germany is always made an Empire is since, following the legacy of the HRE, Austria kept the title of Emperor, and Prussia wanted to be equals with them. ITTL, with Austria losing its monarchy, I think the Prussians would adopt the title to signify that they are now the hegemon of Central Europe. Also, just because Frederick III was pro-democracy doesn't mean that he wouldn't follow the millennium-old tradition of adopting new and fancier titles to signify a change in position. Finally, there's the factor of trolling with France ("Five years ago, you were the world's premier continents-spanning Empire; now we are!"), which is also a proud German tradition.

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by Ares96

I think the reason Germany is always made an Empire is since, following the legacy of the HRE, Austria kept the title of Emperor, and Prussia wanted to be equals with them. ITTL, with Austria losing its monarchy, I think the Prussians would adopt the title to signify that they are now the hegemon of Central Europe. Also, just because Frederick III was pro-democracy doesn't mean that he wouldn't follow the millennium-old tradition of adopting new and fancier titles to signify a change in position. Finally, there's the factor of trolling with France ("Five years ago, you were the world's premier continents-spanning Empire; now we are!"), which is also a proud German tradition.

These are good points. Anyone else care to weigh in?

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

These are good points. Anyone else care to weigh in?

I think it makes sense for Germany to be an Empire, (it also allows the Kings of Saxony and Hannover to retain their Titles. It would also allow the German Emperor to remain King of Prussia, and not break up his country (allowing it to dominate German Politics, like I suspect it will want to)

[metastasis_d]

I'm going to also vote for Emperor/Empire, for reasons that have already been brought up.
It goes beyond a simple trope or clichè that Germany gets turned into an empire in many TLs: it's because it usually makes sense.

[nlucasm]

I think that should be King and not Emperor
They have just win a war against to Empires, wich no longer exist, so the Germans and their new united country are going to do something different, not folloeinh the models from the past.
Just my 2 cents

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

I think it makes sense for Germany to be an Empire, (it also allows the Kings of Saxony and Hannover to retain their Titles. It would also allow the German Emperor to remain King of Prussia, and not break up his country (allowing it to dominate German Politics, like I suspect it will want to)

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

I'm going to also vote for Emperor/Empire, for reasons that have already been brought up.
It goes beyond a simple trope or clichè that Germany gets turned into an empire in many TLs: it's because it usually makes sense.

Originally Posted by nlucasm

I think that should be King and not Emperor
They have just win a war against to Empires, wich no longer exist, so the Germans and their new united country are going to do something different, not folloeinh the models from the past.
Just my 2 cents

Good points everyone.


Thats 3 to 1 in favor of Empire.

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

Good points everyone.


Thats 3 to 1 in favor of Empire.

I'll try to make a good map of TTL's German Empire, so we can work on that

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

I'll try to make a good map of TTL's German Empire, so we can work on that

Sounds good.

Also, I want to have a few more people way in on the Empire/Kingdom issue before I make any official change.

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

Sounds good.

Also, I want to have a few more people way in on the Empire/Kingdom issue before I make any official change.

Maybe post it in the Map Thread again and ask for opinions. That's a high traffic thread.

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

Maybe post it in the Map Thread again and ask for opinions. That's a high traffic thread.

Good idea. Thats what I just did.

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

Good idea. Thats what I just did.

Saw that. Should be fruitful.

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

Sounds good.

Also, I want to have a few more people way in on the Empire/Kingdom issue before I make any official change.

I Present:

The Kingdom of Prussia is the darker shade (I'll slowly get a key going, or label some nations)

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

I Present:

The Kingdom of Prussia is the darker shade (I'll slowly get a key going, or label some nations)

Damn!
You've only been on this site a little while, but you do excellent work!