Vikings of America

[Hawkeye]

Let's say there was an epidemic that spread through the Northeast of North America right as the Vikings were arriving (either brought by them or somehow leaves them immune) thus leaving the region relatively unsettled and the Vikings unopposed in colonizing North America.

What kind of society would the Norse create in America? And what would Europeans do once they start pouring over from the Atlantic?

[twovultures]

If you did have a successful Viking settlement, the culture and politics coming from that settlement would be very independent of Europe through sheer distance, and so would evolve very differently. You could see Christianity rejected in favor of Norse paganism, and if Christianity is practiced the distance from the hierarchy of Rome could mean that many non-orthodox beliefs and rituals would creep into the practice.

It's unlikely at this point in time to get an epidemic 'clearing out' the northeast that wouldn't also kill off a lot of Vikings. I can see something wiping out a large part of the Beothuk, which would allow the Vikings to take Newfoundland, but the lack of population density at this period would make spreading an epidemic difficult. If the Vikings take Newfoundland and stay there, they may eventually unite into a single polity as their civilization grows. They could create a kingdom or be ruled by a parliament like the Icelandic althing, or possibly some mixture of the two.

They would almost certainly have to trade with the Native Americans of the east coast. As the Vikings would be unlikely to bring any epidemics due to their small settlement size, they wouldn't be able to wipe out the Native Americans. It would probably take some time, but it's quite possible that some tribes would adopt livestock and metallurgy from the Vikings. If the Vikings bring barley or rye to this new land, that could be adopted by the Natives although I can't imagine them using it as anything but an emergency backup crop to maize given the latter's extreme productivity (in good conditions) and tastiness.

[PoeFacedKilla]

i've always wanted to write a TL about a Vinland that expands similar to OTL Russia;
starting out in the 900s by vikings, by the 1400s vinlands population should be big enough to start expanding where they could easily take Labrador and northern maine and then expand deeper into canada.

one thing for sure is that there will be another nordic language (probably much more speakers than all Nordics combined OTL.) what to call it?
Vinnish?
Although Vinlandic seems to be more Nordic.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Originally Posted by PoeFacedKilla

i've always wanted to write a TL about a Vinland that expands similar to OTL Russia;
starting out in the 900s by vikings, by the 1400s vinlands population should be big enough to start expanding where they could easily take Labrador and northern maine and then expand deeper into canada.

one thing for sure is that there will be another nordic language (probably much more speakers than all Nordics combined OTL.) what to call it?
Vinnish?
Although Vinlandic seems to be more Nordic.

If a stable Norse colony was established in Newfoundland or one of the main islands in the St Lawrence Gulf, then after a century of low-intensity emigration, I think areas like Labrador would likely be a low priority for further expansion. Not that they wouldn't, it just that there would be better locations further south for agricultural purposes.

And in regard to Norse migration, it would in the long-term require more than just Iceland and Greenland's meagre populations to to support the settlement in North America. As long as Iceland doesn't Christianize right away in the 10th-11th century switch, then people fleeing the Christianizations of Scandinavia might look on Iceland as a refuge.

It would better if a stable colony or colonies were set up in the New World by either Leif Eriksson or Thorfinn Karlsefni, before Iceland becomes Christian, or that Norway's Christianization by Olaf Tryggvason is delayed for a couple of decades. Perhaps then Iceland would already get vital supplies, such as timber for building materials, from North America, so that trading embargoes by pro-Christian kingdoms in Scandinavia wouldn't force them to submit.

[Mr.Wigglemunch]

Im of the opinion that with longer settlement and further exploration the settlers would primarily locate themselves in New England due to richer prospects in agriculture, Newfoundland being a fortified stop over point and fishing port as would Nova Scotia ( stop off between Newfoundland and New England ) although both these land masses would be more easily attained and defendable with more manpower and could be cleared of natives ( or absorb the native population, more easily done than OTL Christian settlers ). And im intrigued by the possible relations with the Natives in New England, as farms would be less defendable, I believe the Native Americans and Nords could relate more to one another and share more in common than OTL European settlers 15th century onwards had.

With any luck I believe Vinland can be assured a couple centuries at most to take form relatively unhindered by other European powers, perhaps we could expect confederation with some tribes and its domince through it, the Nordic ruler being the 'great chief', or atleast firm alliance systems, and the spread of metalwork, and, interestingly, of horses. Coincidently, Nordic colonisation, may ensure a better chance for native survival in the face of European settlement and disease.

[Martinus Paduei]

For Norse looking to expand further southwards from Newfoundland/Nova Scotia, and wanting a fairly sizable base of operations with some defensive possibilities, an obvious option presents itself. The OTL New York City area. Comparatively (to Newfoundland/Nova Scotia) balmy climate, defensible positions, especially with presumptive naval superiority, in Long Island, Manhattan Island and Staten Island, and easy access to a large hinterland by means of the Hudson and Connecticut Rivers.

[Flashman]

And what would happenb when they come in contact with Cahokia? The Cahokians probably would have already heard of the nords through the trade lanes to the great lakes, and perhaps through sed lanes they get horses and iron?

[Uruk]

Speaking of Iron, are there any large deposits of Iron on Newfoundland?

[Dave Howery]

Originally Posted by Uruk

Speaking of Iron, are there any large deposits of Iron on Newfoundland?

I don't know about large deposits, but the settlers at Lance-Aux-Meadows definitely worked with bog iron... not sure if that is enough to keep them going though...

[altwere]

New England is full of iron ore, even though bog iron was the primary source in the early colonial era, and if nothing else northern New England has lots of bogs.

[chornedsnorkack]

Originally Posted by Martinus Paduei

For Norse looking to expand further southwards from Newfoundland/Nova Scotia, and wanting a fairly sizable base of operations with some defensive possibilities, an obvious option presents itself. The OTL New York City area. Comparatively (to Newfoundland/Nova Scotia) balmy climate, defensible positions, especially with presumptive naval superiority, in Long Island, Manhattan Island and Staten Island, and easy access to a large hinterland by means of the Hudson and Connecticut Rivers.

Starting from a homebase in Newfoundland, there are two obvious waterways south, to warmer climates and larger Skraeling populations to trade with. One is the Atlantic coastline - the other is St. Lawrence. IMO the OTL Montreal city area would be even more attractive than New York City.

[Martinus Paduei]

Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack

Starting from a homebase in Newfoundland, there are two obvious waterways south, to warmer climates and larger Skraeling populations to trade with. One is the Atlantic coastline - the other is St. Lawrence. IMO the OTL Montreal city area would be even more attractive than New York City.

To me, that's more west than south, but I agree that if the Norse were well established in Newfoundland and began to expand, they would likely do so both southwards along the Atlantic seaboard, and also up the St. Lawrence. I doubt they'd do one to the to the exclusion of the other.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Lysandros Aikiedes

And in regard to Norse migration, it would in the long-term require more than just Iceland and Greenland's meagre populations to to support it.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Otl quebec went from two or three thousand to eight million or so in 400 years.

The icelanders could easily provide that many settlers.

8,000,000 norse by 1400 ....

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Oh, and remember that ,,viking,, is a job description, not a nationality. There were no vikings in eg greenland.

[King of Rome]

Is there a life-span on this Norse Colony? I think it's a B.A. idea, but around 1500- 1700 ish wouldn't there be aggressive colonial powers on the world scene a la Spain, Portugal, Britain, and France eager to do their own colonizing?

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Otl quebec went from two or three thousand to eight million or so in 400 years.

The icelanders could easily provide that many settlers.

8,000,000 norse by 1400 ....

What the fuck are you talking about?

OTL Quebec was colonized by the French from the 1600's, then the British from the 1700's onward, and not to mention the last century of immigration to Canada.

Compared to early Medieval Iceland and Greenland, Britain and France were much larger states in terms of demographics, and had more advanced administrations and civil infrastructures. So I don't know what you're protesting against.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Lysandros Aikiedes

What the fuck are you talking about?

OTL Quebec was colonized by the French from the 1600's, then the British from the 1700's onward, and not to mention the last century of immigration to Canada.

Compared to early Medieval Iceland and Greenland, Britain and France were much larger states in terms of demographics, and had more advanced administrations and civil infrastructures. So I don't know what you're protesting against.

Because almost all of the pure laine québecois are descended from 2-3k initial settlers. There was very little immigration after the initial settlement.

Thats what im talking about.

Similarly, the us, especially new england, from settlement to the 1840s grew almost entirely by natural increase.

3% growth, which both groups managed for hundreds of years has a huge effect.

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Because almost all of the pure laine québecois are descended from 2-3k initial settlers. There was very little immigration after the initial settlement.

Thats what im talking about.

Similarly, the us, especially new england, from settlement to the 1840s grew almost entirely by natural increase.

3% growth, which both groups managed for hundreds of years has a huge effect.

And just how many French settled in North America between 1600-1750, compared to the Medieval population of Iceland?

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Lysandros Aikiedes

And just how many French settled in North America between 1600-1750, compared to the Medieval population of Iceland?

2000 to 3000 as i keep saying. About 5% the population of mediaval iceland, i believe.

[chornedsnorkack]

Originally Posted by twovultures

It would probably take some time, but it's quite possible that some tribes would adopt livestock and metallurgy from the Vikings. If the Vikings bring barley or rye to this new land, that could be adopted by the Natives although I can't imagine them using it as anything but an emergency backup crop to maize given the latter's extreme productivity (in good conditions) and tastiness.

Maize demands warm summers. There are large areas of Northeast North America where maize is marginal and often fails in poor summers... and where barley, rye and oats, and even wheat when eventually introduced, would be rather more reliable (not to mention diversifying the food base). IMO it is these marginal maize growers who are most likely to adopt new crops... they are likely to be tribes recently moved into new areas and open to changes.