WI: Allies vs. USSR?

[TranscendentalMedication]

What would the consequences be if the Allies had gone to war with the Soviets over Finland or something similar in 1940? Perhaps Operation Pike is carried out?

The entire goal of Nazism was to expand eastwards and colonize, so I don't think there would be any sort of lasting agreement between the Third Reich and the Soviets (especially not the "Nazi-Commies take over Eurasia and ZE VORLD!" cliche), but I think the possibilities here are interesting.

[d32123]

They'd (The Allies and USSR) kiss and make up when it becomes convenient.

[Snake Featherston]

You'd see a conflict that would embarrass both sides, the WAllies would loudly deny ever happened and the Soviets would use as a cudgel to beat the Allies over the head with in the Cold War. Barbarossa is preordained by Nazi ideology, so you see an explicit Enemy of My Enemy situation in this case.

[RamscoopRaider]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

You'd see a conflict that would embarrass both sides, the WAllies would loudly deny ever happened and the Soviets would use as a cudgel to beat the Allies over the head with in the Cold War. Barbarossa is preordained by Nazi ideology, so you see an explicit Enemy of My Enemy situation in this case.

True, but in this case the WAllies might just try to do what they can to bleed the USSR more

[LOTLOF]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

Barbarossa is preordained by Nazi ideology, so you see an explicit Enemy of My Enemy situation in this case.

So long as Hitler is in power I'd agree that there will be a war in the east, but the timing is not set in stone. If this takes place in 1940 there is no reason why Hitler wouldn't try to squeeze everything he possibly could from this alliance before turning on the Soviets.

If they remain allies at least through the end of '41 the Soviets might be threatening the Persian oil fields or even India. Might the new relationship with Germany cause them to provide Japan with oil and other resources? Remove the effects of the oil embargo and you butterfly away not just Pearl Harbor but likely the Pacific War. With no need to capture oil fields Japan likely continues focusing on China.

Without a Pearl harbor does the United States still enter the war? If they do does Hitler decide to further delay the war with Stalin until after the UK and the US are defeated?

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by RamscoopRaider

True, but in this case the WAllies might just try to do what they can to bleed the USSR more

Unlikely if Churchill takes over. He opposed attacking the USSR and would actually try to smooth the whole thing over afterward. And if anyone calls the guy who organized the British role in arming the Whites in the Russian Civil War a Communist or Soviet apologist for such views they forfeit any pretense of an honest view of history.

Originally Posted by LOTLOF

So long as Hitler is in power I'd agree that there will be a war in the east, but the timing is not set in stone. If this takes place in 1940 there is no reason why Hitler wouldn't try to squeeze everything he possibly could from this alliance before turning on the Soviets.

If they remain allies at least through the end of '41 the Soviets might be threatening the Persian oil fields or even India. Might the new relationship with Germany cause them to provide Japan with oil and other resources? Remove the effects of the oil embargo and you butterfly away not just Pearl Harbor but likely the Pacific War. With no need to capture oil fields Japan likely continues focusing on China.

Without a Pearl harbor does the United States still enter the war? If they do does Hitler decide to further delay the war with Stalin until after the UK and the US are defeated?

What's more likely is that Hitler tries to turn this into his pet project of an Anglo-French-Nazi crusade to exterminate the Asiatic Judaeo-Bolsheviks, as he'd see this as a sign his ideology is coming true. If that view sounds like nonsense and ridiculous bullshit, well, it *is* Adolf "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD" Hitler we're talking about here.

[MarshalBraginsky]

Wouldn't the situation in the USSR be a lot worse if the Western Allies joined the Nazis in fighting the Soviets? As in the siege mentality would be realistically large.

[Snake Featherston]

Originally Posted by MarshalBraginsky

Wouldn't the situation in the USSR be a lot worse if the Western Allies joined the Nazis in fighting the Soviets? As in the siege mentality would be realistically large.

I wouldn't really say so. If we look at the practical results of what passed for strategic bombing when those operations were considered, they'll probably bomb Turkey and Iran and ineffectually at that and believe they've ruined Baku and turned it into 1945 Berlin.