St. Pierre and Miquelon taken by Canada after France falls

[Beedok]

They have less than 10 000 people, they could never be their own province.

[Marc Pasquin]

Originally Posted by Dan1988

Separate province, for sure. Annexation to Québec would probably not work in that scenario, as both have had different experiences - whilst Québec's government largely mirrored that of the rest of Canada at the time, SPM's was largely France's in miniscule. Along with very different outlooks, as well as different histories - SPM remaining part of France for longer, with a history partially similar to neighboring Newfoundland's and a different dialect of French that is closer to the European norm. This is represented in OTL by the pro-Free French attitude amongst the locals in SPM, as compared with the neutral-but-pro-Vichy attitude amongst Québécois(es) (in general). In addition, for the most part, SPM largely had local government, so I would assume that some continuity would be in order. That would mean leaving many of the structures of the old territoire d'outre mer status under France, but upgraded and adapted to being self-governing.

So one province, divided into two communes (Saint-Pierre and Miquelon-Langlade), very similar to OTL. It'll definitely win the smallest province label from PEI, for sure. If an effort is made, however, and the timing is right, SPM could also be Canada's only Basque-speaking province. (Basque having been spoken in SPM for a long until dying out in the 1940s-1950s in OTL.)

though I agree with you in regard to the cultural differences with the quebecois at the time, I realy don't SPeM being given provincial status. SPeM has about 4% of the population of PEI and the later has only 4 seats in the upper and the lower houses so even with one representative, you'd end up with a bit of a hard time justifying their representation. Having a new french province (especialy one under those circumstances) might also be hard sell. Joining quebec seems less divisive.

Becoming a terrority is also a possibility, at the time, SPeM had limited autonomy anyway so it wouldn't lose much.

[Clandango]

How about them joining Nova Scotia or some Maritime Union? An early version of Nunavut might also be deemed acceptable. May evem whet Canadian appetiates to inherit the French and British Carribean.

[pompejus]

With all respect, I still do not see why Canada would annex part of a friendly democratic allied country against the wishes of the people living there. It would completely ruin the relationship between Canada and France (and probably various other European countries). Unless France ends up as a Nazi-Germany or a Soviet-Russian puppet, Canada will return St.Pierre and Miquelon. Maybe not directly to the free French, but certainly to post-second-world-war France.

[Clandango]

Depends on which government. I read that De Gaulle tried selling the French Pacific and Carribean to the Americans for one billion dollars. Before Normandy, of course.

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Clandango

Depends on which government. I read that De Gaulle tried selling the French Pacific and Carribean to the Americans for one billion dollars. Before Normandy, of course.

I can see Canada buying them, I can't see Canada keeping the islands without French consent.

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by pompejus

I can see Canada buying them, I can't see Canada keeping the islands without French consent.

They could try forcing through acceptance or simply point out how seven times as many Canadians died in the war as populated the islands, which may have been even less populated back then.

[Xgentis]

Originally Posted by Clandango

They could try forcing through acceptance or simply point out how seven times as many Canadians died in the war as populated the islands, which may have been even less populated back then.

You really suck at diplomacy those kind of action fit nazi germany not canada.

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

You really suck at diplomacy those kind of action fit nazi germany not canada.

You seem to be underestimating the Nazis if you think the actions would even compare.

[Xgentis]

Originally Posted by Clandango

You seem to be underestimating the Nazis if you think the actions would even compare.

So because someone did worst it give an excuses for a shameless land grab?

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

So because someone did worst it give an excuses for a shameless land grab?

We are talking about how this might have happened and what the effects would be. I would rather not get into an arguement over the areas that the French took with or without conquering in comparison to the Canucki horde's swallowing of a handful of islands.

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Clandango

We are talking about how this might have happened and what the effects would be. I would rather not get into an arguement over the areas that the French took with or without conquering in comparison to the Canucki horde's swallowing of a handful of islands.

You have to realise that we are talking about the 20th century, not the 17th century. Diplomacy realy changed since those days. In the 20th century you generally did not annex part of another friendly (western) nation anymore (with obvious exceptions of Nazi-Germany and Soviet-Russia). Canada annexing St. Pierre and Miquelon is a bit like the USA annexing New Brunswick. You simply don't do that anymore.

[Clandango]

Originally Posted by pompejus

You have to realise that we are talking about the 20th century, not the 17th century. Diplomacy realy changed since those days. In the 20th century you generally did not annex part of another friendly (western) nation anymore (with obvious exceptions of Nazi-Germany and Soviet-Russia). Canada annexing St. Pierre and Miquelon is a bit like the USA annexing New Brunswick. You simply don't do that anymore.

I am aware, though considering de Gaulle and Vichy you might be going for a stretch with the friendly part, which is why I suggested the idea of a protectorate earlier on and how De Gaulle had been willing to hock a fair bit of worthless islands, though the prize I gave may have been inflated. I do wonder though. what does the French bombing of Damascus after Syrian independence was recognized count as?

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Clandango

I am aware, though considering de Gaulle and Vichy you might be going for a stretch with the friendly part, which is why I suggested the idea of a protectorate earlier on and how De Gaulle had been willing to hock a fair bit of worthless islands, though the prize I gave may have been inflated.

Oh, I can see Canada invading the islands and I can see Canada not recognising the Gaul and thus not handing the islands over to him during the war. The thing I don't think will happen is Canada keeping the islands after WWII (unless Canda buys the islands from France).

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by pompejus

Oh, I can see Canada invading the islands and I can see Canada not recognising the Gaul and thus not handing the islands over to him during the war. The thing I don't think will happen is Canada keeping the islands after WWII (unless Canda buys the islands from France).

So let's assume that here Canada buys the islands from France, using hard currency (of which I don't know how big the gold and/or silver reserves were in Canada back then, but presumably considerable) and concludes a treaty to seal the deal. Could that help, or am I thinking a bit too optimistic here?

[Marc Pasquin]

Originally Posted by Dan1988

So let's assume that here Canada buys the islands from France, using hard currency (of which I don't know how big the gold and/or silver reserves were in Canada back then, but presumably considerable) and concludes a treaty to seal the deal. Could that help, or am I thinking a bit too optimistic here?

there would be the fishing issue. Without SPeM, France just lost access to the banks.

[Grimbald]

If SP&M had been important to Canada they would have found a way. Perhaps by flooding the islands with settlers then holding a vote, or offering France money. The French have been broke since 1815.

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by Marc Pasquin

there would be the fishing issue. Without SPeM, France just lost access to the banks.

Presumably the treaty would take that into account.

[mowque]

Originally Posted by Grimbald

The French have been broke since 1815.

Wait, what? One of the defining main characteristics of Great Power France was it's uncanny ability to pay for things in cash. Witness, the quick payoff of the Franco-Prussian War indemnity, the vast French investment in Russian railroads leading up to WW1, and the ability of France to buy and lend from the USA during WW1.

[Fearless Leader]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned this but SPeM joining Canada could happen in a Nazi-victory scenario.

Take one of your usual unlikely Nazi-victory POD's and couple that with a weaker Free French movement and once the dust settles SPeM might see joining Confederation as a much more palatable option than remaining as part of a rump or fascist France.