Possible operators of the F-111

[ModernKiwi]

Originally Posted by Riain

The govt ordered the destruction of all plans, drawings, tools and prototypes to ensure it was never revived. Very spiteful.

The rigs that you are talking about are big, and bulky. Not the kind of thing you'd keep around when you'd already decided not to proceed with a model. Same with all the paper work. I am told that there are entire warehouses full of F-16 paperwork in the US for example.

[Pangur]

Originally Posted by ModernKiwi

The rigs that you are talking about are big, and bulky. Not the kind of thing you'd keep around when you'd already decided not to proceed with a model. Same with all the paper work. I am told that there are entire warehouses full of F-16 paperwork in the US for example.

Howver they have preserved the rigs for the C-5 and F-22. They did that for a few more aircraft however I can't remember which ones of the top of my head

[ModernKiwi]

I'm rather suprised they've kept the F-22 rigs, I thought that decision was final...

Prospects of making more C-5's seem rather low too.

[TheMann]

Let's look at this from a logical point of view, with the goal of expanding the usage of the F-111.

The first bit is to address the Canadian part. Canada in the 1960s OTL is not gonna spend the money on buying F-111s unless there is a very good reason to do so, as Canada had socialist-leaning governments of the time topped off by defense ministers who were either ignorant, malicious or both. Now, the idea of Spey Phantoms made in Canada for Canada as well as for Britain is a good way of going around this, but that also requires a better economic situation for Britain or a stronger relationship with the Commonwealth. The ability to sell the F-111 to Iran, Israel, Japan and Australia is possible and easier to accomplish - the first two have the money and political connections at the time, the third has the money and connections but will demand local manufacture (and has the potential problem of violating the rule about defensive weapons only) and the fourth happened IOTL but after long delays and a program suspension. There are others who may consider the idea - Germany is the most likely of these, Taiwan is a possibility but will have to be pre-1972.

1950s
Going for the Britain and Canada portion. Let's start by making the British economy stronger. The British economy had a severe balance of payments problem by the end of the 1960s and efficiency and Britain's economy by that point weren't in the same building. That has to be gotten around - but I think if we go back to the second term as PM for one Winston Churchill, that can be done. How? You get Britain to focus on developing its own industries with an eye towards excellent products and export performance and not just the goal of full employment. The idea is that if Britain is the world's leader in several fields of the economy, it can export goods to the world and thus allow for full employment without money problems by taking lots of know-how and using it to make the finest goods in the world in several fields, especially high-wealth ones like automobiles and aircraft. Thus, the Ministry of Supply and British aerospace industry is directed to look to push boundaries. This also means that aircraft that would be made obsolete in the forseeable future, such as the Saunders-Roe Princess and Bristol Brabazon, never even come off the drawing board. The last turboprops made by the UK were the Vickers Viscount and Bristol Britannia, before the De Havilland Comet introduced the world to the jet age. Conservative design means the aircraft does not suffer the problems with depressurization that happened IOTL, and as a result the Comet is a reasonable commercial success. That, however, is topped by the Vickers V-1000, which becomes the Vickers VC-7 - which along with the Boeing 707 is said to be the aircraft that introduced the world to the jet age.

At the same time, aerospace collaboration between Canada and Britain begins when Canada, seeking to replace its aging fleet of patrol aircraft, develops the Brittania airframe into the Canadair CP-107 Argus. The resulting aircraft is so good that the Royal Navy wants it badly, and the Argus also ends up being exported to Australia and Argentina, in both cases replacing old Lockheed Neptunes. The Canadians deliver the first aircraft on time and under budget, a surprise to the British but one they like a lot, and it gets the desired result of giving Canadair an entry into the British aerospace industry. The Avro Arrow still gets canned - though the RAF had expressed serious interest in it - but the Canadian aviation industry is saved after this by the British, who in an effort to bust the VC-7 into the American market contract Avro Canada to license-build the VC-7 for the market. This is moderately successful, as considerable orders from Delta and United give Vickers a foothold in the United States.

The RAF builds up its fleet of V-Bombers, but with Vickers occupied with a pile of orders for the VC-7 (and dozens of RAF air-to-air tankers orders as well), the V-Bomber fleet is limited to the Avro Vulcan and Handley-Page Victor. It doesn't take long for the designers of the latter to recognize the potential worth in conventional bombing, and later Victors are built with the secondary ability to carry a ton of conventional ordinance as well as nuclear weapons. This turns out to be excellent foresight later on. After the cancellation of the Arrow, the British rescuing Avro Canada is rewarded by Canada choosing to take the English Electric Lightning for its new interceptor aircraft, with 24 examples built in Britain and 50 in Canada between 1960 and 1964. There is one major difference to Canuck Lightnings, though - the last twelve are built with fatter rear fuselage sections and longer tails to use the Orenda PS.13 Iroquois engine. This upgrade turns the already-fast Lightning into a screaming monster, with the Iroquois making considerably more power without afterburners than the Rolls-Royce Avon did with them - and, to Rolls-Royce's utter shock, the Iroquois is more efficient on fuel. (True in OTL, too - the RR Avon's specific fuel consumption is 0.932 lb/lbf/h, whereas the Orenda PS.13 Iroquois' fuel consumption is 0.85 lb/lbf/h.) It's such an improvement that all Canuck Lightnings are retrofitted with it by the end of the 1960s, and the Iroquois is also license-produced by SNECMA in France for high-performance versions of the Dassault Mirage III. The CF-104 Starfighter is not built in as big a number as a result of the costs of acquiring the Lightning, which is designated CF-103 by the RCAF.

1960s
The Canada-United Kingdom co-operation doesn't go unnoticed in America, and seeking to bust into the European market, McDonnell Douglas makes a proposal to have a "Commonwealth Phantom", designed with special Rolls-Royce Spey turbofan engines and mostly-British electronics, manufactured by McDonnell Douglas Canada. The idea passes quickly, and Canada gets the ball rolling by ordering twenty-four F-4K Phantom IIs in 1964. Britain doesn't take long to see the advantage in the versatile fighter-bomber, and McDonnell Douglas Canada soon picks up an order for 144 aircraft for the Royal Navy in 1966. Yet again, the Canucks deliver on time and on budget, and soon Canada's fleet of obsolete CF-100s is soon on their way out, owing to the F-4s.

The problems with high-altitude bombing are made appallingly clear by the U-2 incident in 1960, forcing the RAF to adapt. The original plan to mount the Skybolt air-launched cruise missile is shot down when the Skybolt is killed in 1963. Instead, the British strategic nuclear deterrent is passed to the Royal Navy - but the compromise to allow the RAF to accept this is that they would get the TSR.2, provided that they repurposed the V-Bomber fleet to other roles. This allows the big-bellied Victor to come to a new role in life. The Vulcan, however, is left without a job, and plans to arm them for a maritime strike role are tossed by the Royal Navy, which wants to keep that job to its (quite expensive) new carriers. This leads to another of the massive rivalries among the services......which is solved when the RAF and RN come to a compromise, which also happens to help others.

In the deal, two squadrons of Vulcans, 24 in total, would be transferred to the Royal Navy for Maritime Strike duties, while the RAF would not attack their carriers or their cost if the RN didn't go after the TSR.2. The rest of the Vulcan fleet would be disposed of, but the RAF plans right off the bat to sell these to people interested in them. Thus, the RAF offers its lightly-used Vulcan B.2s to the Canadian, Australian, Indian and South African air forces for peanuts. In the aftermath of the unification of the Canadian armed forces in 1968 (and the massive morale problems that resulted from it), the government of incoming Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau decides to go for this to try and improve morale by giving Canada massive increase in abilities. Australia also acquires a small number of Vulcans, the cheap cost being the deal-clincher. This results in the RCAF acquiring 28 Avro Vulcan B.2s in 1966, with 12 each sold to India and Australia. The 12 sold to India cause a geopolitical mess, as Pakistan searches for options to counter India's new bombtrucks.

Shortly after this, Rolls-Royce's financial problems hit and hit hard. Undercut by the American aero engine makers and stung by the huge cost of developing the RB211 turbofan, Rolls-Royce goes into receivership. Orenda, in an act that would become one of the biggest successful gambles in the history of aviation, leverages itself to the eyeballs and bails Rolls-Royce out, in the process getting the rights to make the RB211 themselves. This is a massive relief to Lockheed, whose L-1011 TriStar airliner was designed for the RB211. Rolls-Royce Orenda, as the new company is known, quickly begins making the RB211 on both sides of the Atlantic - but the delay causes huge problems for Lockheed, who with massive development losses on the SST program and huge costs from the L-1011 and C-5 Galaxy projects mounting, needs an American federal government bailout. They get it, but Washington demands Lockheed find other help - and Rolls-Royce Orenda makes a commitment. Air Canada here helps its Canuck supplier, ordering its Boeing 747s to use the RB211. The RR-Orenda / Lockheed partnership lasts for decades.

The F-111 Arrives
This is where the F-111 comes into play. The original TFX plan was to use the F-111 for a number of duties, including naval interdiction, a plan which never works out owing to the F-111's large size and the problems with it. Australia is convinced to order the F-111 in 1967, despite its recent delivery of 12 Avro Vulcan bombers, but the F-111B naval variant dies on the table, a victim of its massive size and inferiority to the F-4 Phantom in air-to-air maneuvers. But the huge AWG-9 radar and AIM-54 Phoenix missile system get attention. Grumman takes these and builds a new airframe around it (the F-14 Tomcat), but General Dynamics, having invested a whole lot of time and money into the project, offers it for sale to anybody that is willing to buy the project.

And Canada bit.

Having not forgotten its Arrow experience and the fact that Canada's air defense forces, made up of the Lightning, Starfighter and Phantom, the former fast but technologically antiquated, the middle aircraft difficult to fly and slow to turn and the latter needed more for fighter-bomber duties, sees the program as a way of fixing the problem for good and making them in Canada. Canadair doesn't have a hard time convincing Washington, of course, but PM Trudeau and his government dismiss the plan as too costly - but his opposition leaders, even avowed-socialist Tommy Douglas, call on Trudeau to go for it, as a chance to put Canada forever into aviation's major leagues.

In 1972, however, Trudeau loses his majority. The one of the NDP's demands for stable support of Trudeau banks on the F-111 project being done, and Trudeau grudgingly accepts, ordering the production of 30 aircraft for the RCAF's interceptor forces. General Dynamics is overjoyed and hands off all F-111B development duties to Canadair. By now, Canada aerospace industry is a major world player, hammered home when Lockheed sets up in Canada - a term of its help from RR Orenda - and the first Canuck-built L-1011 rolls off the line in March of 1974. The CF-111, as the interceptor project is called, is a chance for Canada to take an effectively-completed program and run with it, and Canada's thirty aircraft soon lead to an order for the AIM-54 Phoenix. The first Canadian CF-111 takes to the skies on April 26, 1974. Entry tests on the first aircraft prove without a doubt that the big airplane was a massive cut above its rivals. It's not as fast as the Lightning and is no faster climbing than the Starfighter, but it massively outranges both of them, and it shows. The AWG-9/AIM-54 system is a further revelation, and the CF-111s are all fitted with a 20mm cannon and an internal bomb bay, with the maximum loadout including six Phoenix missiles.

Trudeau falls in 1974, and incoming Prime Minister Robert Stanfield loudly supports Canada's armed forces getting a major upgrade. This causes the CF-111 order to grow from 30 to 120, and a replacement for the complex TF30 engine is ordered. This comes in the form of General Electric F100 engines, which begin being used on the CF-111 starting with the later aircraft of the original run having them fitted from the factory. The 1980 CF Air Command combat strength includes 91 CF-111s, 36 CF-116 Phantoms, 87 CF-104 Starfighters, 33 CF-103 Lightnings and 25 Avro CB-119 Vulcan bombers.

In Britain, the TSR.2 is built and is successful, entering service in 1968 and staying there for a long time to come. The remaining Victors and Vulcans soon gain turbofan power and better electronics. Britain's continued global reach is proven decisively by the regular deployment of its four aircraft carriers (two CVA-01s as well as Eagle and Ark Royal) and their aircraft. The V-Bomber and TSR.2 fleets are supported by eighty Vickers VC-7 tankers, which allows them to have a major reach, too. In addition to that, the British are effective competitors in the civil aviation fields, with the Vickers VC-10 large airliner entering service in 1970, a direct result of the Boeing 747, Douglas DC-10 and Lockheed L-1011. In addition to this, the British industry produced several major military transport planes, with the Shorts Belfast and Hawker Siddley Argosy freighters seeing exports abroad. The Europeans by the end of the 1960s knew the score, and while a European aircraft consortium would give the British an immense advantage, it was seen as preferable to being swamped by the Americans - and the commercial failure of the Dassault Mercure hammered that point home even to a hardhead like Marcel Dassault. The Airbus A300 was a consequence of this, and while Vickers stayed out of the Airbus program, the other British aerospace makers didn't, a fact that Vickers would one day come to regret. The British, however, leaned heavily on the EE Lightning for air-defense duties - and they were not blind to its faults, either. And the Canuck fighter was, in essence, an excellent option considering the close Canada-UK co-operation and Canada's work on Britain's F-4 fleet.

And after the French pulled out of the AFVG project in 1967, the RAF began looking at other interceptor ideas, though the UKVG kept going for a while. However, as costs were a problem, once Canada took over the F-111 project the RAF began paying attention to it as well. Part of Stanfield's rationale for the big order increase in 1974 had been the hope that others would buy the Canadian-American heavy interceptor, and the RAF went for it, officially ordering 60 CF-111s for interceptor duties in March 1975. This had no difficulty passing in Ottawa or Washington, who still had to sign off on it because of the level of American content. British CF-111s were to be assembled by Bristol Aerospace, with much of the fuselage built by Canadair and the electronics and many other components by General Dynamics. The complicated arrangement was, however, workable for all sides, and the aircraft, named the General Dynamics Merlin FG.1, entered service for the RAF in 1978.

The UKVG went on to become the base of a working group to determine replacements for several aircraft in their air forces. This group, including Great Britain, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Italy and Canada. Belgium withdrew from the idea in 1968 because of a good offer from Dassault, but the other nations were still working on it - and despite Canada's interceptor project, they still wanted a piece of this pie, figuring that if it really was the beginning of a pan-Europe fighter, being in was better than being out even if none were ever bought, and they knew that they would one day need to replace the Starfighter - and the CF-111 didn't mean they got out, Canada being aware that the mighty F-111 was not a replacement for the Starfighter and more to the point aware that they stood to gain from a project if they were involved.

Panavia Aircraft was formed in 1970, and Canada's lobbying led the Dutch to stay in. Trudeau avoided any firm commitments to the program - and in the process lost an opportunity to be in on the engine development - but Stanfield went all in, stating in his defense plan that if Canada got a share in the work, they would order the multi-role aircraft. Britain also went in, but the problem of differing goals soon became apparent. Germany wanted a strike plane, but Britain and Canada needed good fighter and the Dutch and Italians wanted a combination of the two. In the end, the Tornado was a small enough aircraft to be a good fighter, with all Tornados being two-seaters and all of them being multi-role aircraft, using the British Ferranti Blue Fox radar. The Tornado gets the work split 30% each to Britain and Germany, 15% each to Canada and Italy and 10% to the Netherlands. The workshare deals are worked out in the winter of 1974, and the first Tornado prototype flying in March 1975. The Tornado's development goes well and smoothly, and the first production units are delivered to the RAF and Luftwaffe in 1979, with the first Italian Air Force and Royal Netherlands Air Force units arriving in 1980 and the first Canadian Forces units in early 1981.

The Canadians' development of the F-111 leads to regular work between Canada and Australia on the project, which results in the F-111 in Australian service earlier (the RAAF's final F-111 is delivered in 1974) and with more effectiveness. The Luftwaffe leases a dozen F-111Fs from the USAF in 1975 to fill the gap between their old F-104s and the incoming Tornado, and their pilots like the Vark to such a degree that they buy it - and in order to avoid Carter defense cuts, a second dozen is sold for cheap in 1977, right from USAF units in Europe. 65 examples of the F-111A is also sold to Iran in 1970, where they operate well during the Iran-Iraq war, this is in the middle of a large number of F-4 Phantoms - and from 1976, F-14A Tomcats. After the Iranian Revolution, however, the F-14As are unable to be gotten parts for - and Canada buys these as well, though it becomes clear decades later that over half of the money paid to Iran for the F-14 fleet came from the United States, an attempt to keep the Tomcat out of the hands of a country that was widely seen as an enemy. Iran is able, however, to use their F-111s extensively.

The early 1980s sees the RCAF retire the Starfighter and the Lightning, and use the ex-IRIAF F-14 Tomcat fleet to allow a large number of the CF-111s to move to Europe for interceptor and strike duties there. This also sees Canada undertake a program of aerial refueling tankers in the 1980s, and a life-extension on the mighty Vulcans. One of Stanfield's last actions before his retirement in 1984 is to propose the renaming of the CF Air Command back to its old name, which is done by his successor, Brian Mulroney, in 1986. The 1986 RCAF combat aircraft fleet is made up of 114 CF-111 "Arctic Vark", 127 CF-146 "Typhoon", 34 CF-116 "Phantom II", 75 CF-184 "Tomcat" and 23 CB-119 "Vulcan" bombers. The RCAF is the fourth largest of the NATO air forces (USA, Britain and Germany are ahead) and its aircraft are, aside from the Tomcat and Vulcan, either built in Canada or had major pieces built in Canada. The CF-111 by the mid-1980s has evolved back into a strike aircraft, adding air-to-ground missiles and Paveway laser-guided bombs to its arsenal, that feeling growing after the Tomcat takes many of the CF's interceptor jobs from the Arctic Vark. Canada's booming economy in the 1980s makes money issues much less than they had once been, and a regular feeling in Canada by this point is that the air force, Canada's Navy and its fast-moving ground forces give better flexibility and bang-for-the-buck than a large land army.

Britain by the mid-1980s has retired the Lightning, and their F-4 fleet begins to be cycled out in the mid-1980s - with the Tornado, Aardvark, TSR.2 and Harrier being a force in its own right, not to mention the RAF's "Bomber Command", their fleet of Victor bombers, which prove their usefulness in Argentina's incredibly-idiotic attempt to invade the Falkland Islands in 1982. The fact that Britain had four carriers to hit back was shown clearly, as three of them, as well as the Bomber Command, tore the Argentina invasion to pieces. The Victors would prove their worth again in the Gulf War, and the TSR.2 would be the backbone of the striking ability to the RAF in combat into the 21st Century.

Proven in combat itself, the Iranian F-111 order is matched by Israel's own order of the F-111F in 1974. Israeli F-111s use many of their own upgrades.

[LostCosmonaut]

Regarding the destruction of the Blackbird tooling, MacNamara did order that, in the late 60s, I believe.

[Riain]

TheMann, wow! I don't agree, but wow!

[NothingNow]

Originally Posted by ModernKiwi

I'm rather suprised they've kept the F-22 rigs, I thought that decision was final...

Prospects of making more C-5's seem rather low too.

You need the same rigs to make replacement parts when it comes time to do the overhauls.

[Just Leo]

Originally Posted by TheMann

After the cancellation of the Arrow, the British rescuing Avro Canada is rewarded by Canada choosing to take the English Electric Lightning for its new interceptor aircraft, with 24 examples built in Britain and 50 in Canada between 1960 and 1964. There is one major difference to Canuck Lightnings, though - the last twelve are built with fatter rear fuselage sections and longer tails to use the Orenda PS.13 Iroquois engine. This upgrade turns the already-fast Lightning into a screaming monster, with the Iroquois making considerably more power without afterburners than the Rolls-Royce Avon did with them - and, to Rolls-Royce's utter shock, the Iroquois is more efficient on fuel. (True in OTL, too - the RR Avon's specific fuel consumption is 0.932 lb/lbf/h, whereas the Orenda PS.13 Iroquois' fuel consumption is 0.85 lb/lbf/h.) It's such an improvement that all Canuck Lightnings are retrofitted with it by the end of the 1960s, and the Iroquois is also license-produced by SNECMA in France for high-performance versions of the Dassault Mirage III. The CF-104 Starfighter is not built in as big a number as a result of the costs of acquiring the Lightning, which is designated CF-103 by the RCAF.

I laughed, I cried. The Lightning was never a good enough weapon to be fitted with up-graded radar, and it never would have been good enough because it was configurationally challenged. The Iroquois is 231" long, with a 42" diam. and weighs 4650 lbs. The Avon is 126" by 35.7" and 2890 lbs. All this to carry two missile at blistering speed for a short distance. The Lightning's maximum speed was never known because it ran out of gas while still accellerating, and you want to make it faster.

It would have been a new aircraft, but still a useless weapon.

[Riain]

I did the sums once and a Lightning F2A and F6 doesn't hold that much less fuel than a Phantom. The problem of course is that taxi/take-off/approach/landing take about the same amount of fuel in both aircraft, leaving the Phantom with an extra 2000l to use in the air. The other big plus for the Phantom was the 3 plumbed hardpoints, all of which carried way more fuel than the Lightnings 2 overwing hardpoints.

Edit. The rough numbers are:

Lightning F2A; 3535l internal + 3012l belly = 6547l. F6; 3535l internal + belly with gun 2461l = 5996l + 2 overwing 2666l = 8662l.
Phantom; Internal 7549l + 3 external 5150l = 12699l.

[von hitchofen]

Originally Posted by TheMann

In the deal, two squadrons of Vulcans, 24 in total, would be transferred to the Royal Navy for Maritime Strike duties, while the RAF would not attack their carriers or their cost if the RN didn't go after the TSR.2. The rest of the Vulcan fleet would be disposed of, but the RAF plans right off the bat to sell these to people interested in them.

I think the Admiralty would steer clear of V-bombers, any V-bomber in the anti-ship role

Buccaneers with Martels, and later Sea Eagles, do the job just fine

"and the if the RAF can have F-111s [cough] Merlins, why can't we...?"

the Tin Triangle would make a huge radar return and SAM target for any Russki ship, with no improvement in stand-off performance against them

anything bigger than a Krivak would have the Vulcan for breakfast...

[Pangur]

Originally Posted by Riain

I did the sums once and a Lightning F2A and F6 doesn't hold that much less fuel than a Phantom. The problem of course is that taxi/take-off/approach/landing take about the same amount of fuel in both aircraft, leaving the Phantom with an extra 2000l to use in the air. The other big plus for the Phantom was the 3 plumbed hardpoints, all of which carried way more fuel than the Lightnings 2 overwing hardpoints.

Edit. The rough numbers are:

Lightning F2A; 3535l internal + 3012l belly = 6547l. F6; 3535l internal + belly with gun 2461l = 5996l + 2 overwing 2666l = 8662l.
Phantom; Internal 7549l + 3 external 5150l = 12699l.

The big however is this

EE Lighting F2A - range 859m - 155 supersonic

F4E range 367m (that's from Wikipedia - seems a bit short)

[Just Leo]

Originally Posted by Pangur

The big however is this

EE Lighting F2A - range 859m - 155 supersonic

F4E range 367m (that's from Wikipedia - seems a bit short)

Combat radius and range aren't the same thing. And over-wing ferry tanks aren't the same as combat tankage. And the Lightning stores fuel in the vertical fin and flaps. That's really using it. Also, the skinny tires don't allow for an overweight take-off state.

Really, if it was of any value, they would have given it a real grown up radar.

[Pangur]

Originally Posted by Just Leo

Combat radius and range aren't the same thing. And over-wing ferry tanks aren't the same as combat tankage. And the Lightning stores fuel in the vertical fin and flaps. That's really using it. Also, the skinny tires don't allow for an overweight take-off state.

I did wonder if that was my mistake. I recalled reading some where that the Lighting F2 had a short range which what I was trying to illustrate.

Originally Posted by Gannt the chartist

Really, if it was of any value, they would have given it a real grown up radar.

That's in reference to the Lighting F2?

[Just Leo]

Originally Posted by Pangur

I did wonder if that was my mistake. I recalled reading some where that the Lighting F2 had a short range which what I was trying to illustrate.



That's in reference to the Lighting F2?

The combat radius of of the F4E Phantom is listed in Wiki as 367nm, nautical miles, 422 statute miles.

The ferranti radar was added to F3 to operate the Red Top missile armament. F2s were up-graded to F6 airframes as F2A but could not carry Red Tops.

[Riain]

From what I understand the RAF didn't think they were going to keep the Lightning long-term until about 1970. Until then it was considered an interim fighter and not given the development it needed, but of course by 1970 the horse had already bolted and things like the radar and Red Top were not being developed.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Originally Posted by Riain

From what I understand the RAF didn't think they were going to keep the Lightning long-term until about 1970. Until then it was considered an interim fighter and not given the development it needed, but of course by 1970 the horse had already bolted and things like the radar and Red Top were not being developed.

That's pretty much it, the Lightning was the only fighter project to escape The Sandys Axe in 1957 because it was intended to be an interim aircraft until all of Sandys' proposed SAM's came along. It was basically a production version of English Electric's P.1A and P.1B research aircraft and was envisioned as a point defence interceptor to protect V-Bomber bases from attack by Soviet bombers, hence the limited fuel capacity and weapons fit weren't considered problems. EE did have some radically upgraded versions, including one with variable geometry wings under design that would have addressed these issues but they never left the drawing board.

[Pangur]

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

That's pretty much it, the Lightning was the only fighter project to escape The Sandys Axe in 1957 because it was intended to be an interim aircraft until all of Sandys' proposed SAM's came along. It was basically a production version of English Electric's P.1A and P.1B research aircraft and was envisioned as a point defence interceptor to protect V-Bomber bases from attack by Soviet bombers, hence the limited fuel capacity and weapons fit weren't considered problems.

So that's why of it's range and radar. Now I am curious as to how they managed to sell them to both Kuwait and Saudi?

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

EE did have some radically upgraded versions, including one with variable geometry wings under design that would have addressed these issues but they never left the drawing board.

More of the lethal inertia that the British aerospace industry is known for or was that another victim of Sandy's ?

[The Oncoming Storm]

Originally Posted by Pangur

So that's why of it's range and radar. Now I am curious as to how they managed to sell them to both Kuwait and Saudi?

Traditional close links I guess, this was in the time when Britain was still a major player in the Middle East. The Kuwaitis actually got very little use from theirs as the Lightning was a horrendously complex beast to keep serviceable and they didn't have the support infrastructure needed.

More of the lethal inertia that the British aerospace industry is known for or was that another victim of Sandy's ?

Probably the later as after 1957 there weren't supposed to be any advanced fighter projects afterwards. The lack of money didn't help either.

[Matt Wiser]

Incidentally, want a F-4 order that McAir wished had gone ahead? Kuwait ordered 24 F-4Es in 1971, and the Royal Saudi Air Force ordered 48 with a projected follow-on order for 48 more, including a dozen RF-4E variants. But something happened: the Yom Kippur War.....

[TheMann]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Incidentally, want a F-4 order that McAir wished had gone ahead? Kuwait ordered 24 F-4Es in 1971, and the Royal Saudi Air Force ordered 48 with a projected follow-on order for 48 more, including a dozen RF-4E variants. But something happened: the Yom Kippur War.....

Have Kuwait and Saudi stay out of that whole ruckus and you might get that war. Israel is going to hate the prospect of Phantoms in the hands of the Arabs, though.